Skype Calls

The whole point I'm making for you is that you're free to use Skype. That's what I said in my first comment. Just don't force others to use it.

While TTT chat isn't the greatest and lowers the quality of the mic, it's still good enough to use. And like I said again, you can MUTE them.

What I meant by Steam chat, I meant the TTT chat.

I'm sorry if you don't like to press a button to use Skype and/or if you think I'm threatening you. That's not how I'm trying to sound.

Considering that you've already been told why you can't Skype with a staff member, there's no reason to explain that.

 

The point here is @ForgetfulCat is that if you are going to us Skype be careful because the first time you give any kind of information away that helps your friends get a advantage over the game YOU WILL GET BANNED and you friends no exceptions.

 

Yup, like I said already, not trying to force others to use Skype. Merely trying to attain the privilege for me and a moderator.

Yup, TTT chat is good enough for YOU to use. I much prefer Skype or Steam Chat. I've already explained this.

Oh. Um... ok.

And alright, I accept that. I just interpreted it wrong.

Actually, I haven't been told why I can't use Skype with a staff member. The only explanation I've heard is "They might ghost." I've already stated that I won't, and obviously, if i did, i would get banned. It would be the same as if I was Skyping with another regular player. Why are mods not trusted as much as regular players?

Um.. yeah, I think we've established that. Thanks, I guess?

 

That is a excellent point.

 

It's not that they're not as trusted, it's easy to stop your mods from using Skype - it's much harder to stop all your players from using Skype. Mods are upheld to higher standards, and after what happened with a mod getting banned for ghosting, we don't allow staff (that is staff, admins included) to be in Skype calls while in-game.

 

Final verdict: It's okay to use Skype, but you are held liable for any inadvertent ghosting that may occur.

 

But you're basically punishing them for crimes that they MIGHT commit. I thought that players (staff included) were supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty." Punish the offenders when they commit the crimes, not because they have the potential to commit them. Through using this policy, you are implying that staff members don't have enough self-control. "They will ghost if they use Skype," you say. If your staff members don't have enough self-control, they should be demoted. Simple as that.
And I've heard of this "incident" with the bad mod. Everyone on this server seems to use that incident to prove any and all of their arguments. That was a worst-case scenario, and that moderator obviously should never have been one. You can't use his actions to pass judgment on all other staff members. If you do this, you compare everyone else to him. And I don't think that is the message you want to convey.

So you're accusing me of lying. Cool.

Um, first of all, I don't just stay silent when I'm dead. I don't mention my killer however. I still will continue to talk to my friends. Secondly, if someone's using game chat, whenever they get killed, they can no longer talk in game chat. Therefore, they are staying silent. This strategy is often used in TTT (i.e. "Talk if you're alive"). Therefore, game chat is actually more helpful than Skype for finding out that someone is dead.

Yeah, lol, I think everyone can agree with that.

Yes, it all seems to boil down to this (for me at least).

This verdict is okay with me. However, I would like it applied to staff members as well.

 

Our leadership has a strong position on Skype use as a staff member and it's not a necessity. The only use I could see it being used for is staffing servers to ensure there is enough coverage; a communication aid. As far as in game, we have our admin chat, as well as regular chat for being alive and dead.

Before the rule about not using third party comms came up, I had tested Steam calls which cut out for the call when using the in game mic; kind of like what Zikeji said to do for Skype calls.

Staff should not use thus party voice comms to avoid the explosion that caused that decision to be made in the first place.

 

No, we aren't. We're preventing them from breaking a rule, not punishing them for the possibility of breaking a rule.

Again, with what I said above - we don't restrict Skype usage as a punishment. It is a preventative measure.

I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. It's a preventative measure, not a punishment. The issue isn't whether or not they have self control, the issue is we want to keep a health staff team. Self control isn't a factor. If you're in Skype in-game you're likely to accidentally ghost in the heat of the moment. I wouldn't even trust myself to be in a call in-game.

The incident involved a player and a mod. The player was a demoted mod so maybe you're thinking of him as the "bad mod", the other mod was arguably good. They didn't think it was ghosting, but it was. That moderator probably would have come back and been with us today if it wasn't for the following incident where his staff friends resigned because they thought it was unfair.

Before the incident being in a Skype call while in game for staff members was already pretty much not allowed, that incident just pushed it into gear and becoming an official rule. But again, we aren't using an past staff member's actions as punishment for new ones, it's a preventative measure. If you found that eating a certain food made you throw up every once in a while, you might want to avoid that food. Same case here. Nothing to do with judging our staff members as rule breakers.

I don't see where you got those notions.

 

You're missing the point that I've been trying to make. It doesn't matter what you think is a "necessity." Games are meant to be entertainment. If using Skype makes the game more enjoyable for me and my moderator friend (as long as we aren't preventing anyone else from having fun), then why aren't we allowed to do so? It is a game. It is an opportunity to sit back and relax with friends. If a rule, any rule, hampers players from having fun with their friends (even if those players are staff), then said rule should not exist.

This doesn't in any way show that you trust your staff. If you have to make rules just for them (again, to reduce their ability to talk with friends), that seems to indicate that they are not trusted to be responsible.

I don't see how this summary of the incident disproves anything that I said.

This is a good analogy. I myself have always found it hard to create analogies, so I respect you for this one. However, let's try another: Junk food is obviously unhealthy, but gamers everywhere eat it. Just because the food is unhealthy, doesn't mean that gamers shouldn't eat it. The food is enjoyable to eat. As long as gamers are responsible in moderating how much they eat, the usage of the junk food is not a problem. It is the same with Skype (or any third party chat, obviously). It makes the game more enjoyable. It may give an unfair advantage to those Skyping, if used improperly. However, as long as they are responsible in moderating how much they say out loud, there won't be a problem.

----------------------------------------------------

Now, I must make a personal comment here. During the course of reviewing how I have used Skype and TTT in the past, I discovered that I had messed up a few times, and given information to my friends that made the game unfair. However, as stated, this is in the past, not the present or future. I know that some of the staff have gotten banned for various reasons in the past, and they are still allowed to be staff. We have all made mistakes in the past, me included. However, they are in the past. Just thought I would mention that.

 

People like have fun by RDMing, but it isn't allowed isn't it? People like to ghost and hack and cheat, but it isn't allowed, is it? Just because it is fun, doesn't mean we allow it. If you and your staff friend want to Skype, go ahead, have your friend be demoted for breaking the staff rules and etiquette.

You're missing the point that these things are set in place for a reason. It is not a necessity so players can have fun on the server. It is an option given to players if they want to Skype. I think you're lucky that you can Skype as a normal player. Yes, we want a lax environment for our staff, but we still have standards we must maintain as staff members. Are leadership are being proactive in not allowing Skype, rather than being reactive and losing a valuable member of the staff.

 

I already made the distinction between Skyping and RDMing/ghosting/hacking/cheating, and I quote "If using Skype makes the game more enjoyable for me and my moderator friend (as long as we aren't preventing anyone else from having fun)..." Skyping is not ruining fun for others, unless we are ghosting as well. Skyping is a tool that can be misused; it is not a crime in itself.

Did you really just say that? I'm "lucky"? I'm "lucky" that I can talk to my friends while gaming? What?!?! The day that admins are given power over communication between friends is a bad day indeed.

 

Your friend volunteered to help the server. One if the stipulations of being a staff member is not using Skype in game. If they did not want to abide by that stipulation, then they could have left.

Like I said, we here at STTT are proactive, not reactive. I would much rather see a staff member not be allowed to ghost than see a staff meet and a friend get banned/demoted for inadvertently ghosting.

 

Some people play games to have fun, some play to get off stress, some play to feel powerful. There are numerous reasons people play games, but mainly it all goes back down to "entertain". The issue here is different people are stimulated by different types of entertainment. Just because you enjoy playing it while on Skype with a friend doesn't mean everyone does.

Staff members (should) enjoy helping out the server and the players, and consequently enjoy a different form of entertainment. Staff members hold the position so they can help the server, not to have fun. Thus, feeling a need to be on Skype and in game shouldn't be prevalent. I haven't seen any of our current staff complain about the inability to use Skype while in-game.

Fun is a byproduct. You might volunteer at an animal shelter and it'll be fun at times, but it won't be fun while they're putting down an animal. The bottom line is you volunteer to help out, and our staff are volunteers.

If we trusted our staff we would give them more access. A moderators position isn't built around trust in the first place, it's build around their ability to moderate. If they do good and slowly gain trust from the higher ups, they could end up an admin, which is based around both trust and ability to administrate. We make rules for them so they can uphold a higher standard than normal players. A normal player is allowed to do stuff staff can't because a normaly player didn't agree to those stipulations.

You said it was with a bad mod. The mod wasn't bad, so unless you're referring to the demoted mod(who wasn't a mod at the time of the incident). The mod had to be demoted because we couldn't give an exception to staff as that would be bad for the community as a whole.

Your analogy relies on a stereotype; 'gamers everywhere eat junk food'. But going by your analogy, we allow moderates to 'moderate how much they eat'. Just not while in-game on the servers. I've been in multiple group calls where we play other games. Their priority for being on the server is to keep it under control and make sure the players as a whole have a fun experience

 

Forgetful while i see what your trying to get at wouldn't have a bunch of people in a skype call be the same thing as having a bunch of people in TTT? people WILL talk over each other no matter what program you are using to chat. It wont fix anything really.

 

It's nice that you take pride in your server and its staff. However, you side-stepped my argument, and pretended I was saying, "My mod friend should disobey the rules." I do not wish for him to do that, now that I fully understand the situation. I want to debate the purpose of the rule, specifically the rule prohibiting staff from using Skype. I want to get the rule changed, not get staff to disobey. The purpose of this thread is to point out how silly this rule is, not to encourage disobedience.

I didn't say everyone did! I said quite specifically near the top of this page: "Yup, like I said already, not trying to force others to use Skype. Merely trying to attain the privilege for me and a moderator." Skype is enjoyable for ME. Not everyone. How many times do I have to say this?

Hm. So, a game has become work? How pleasant.

"If we trusted our staff." So... you don't? A moderator's "ability to moderate" is in large part based on how much admins trust them to execute the rules of the server. Otherwise, why would they be moderators? Their positions are entirely based on trust, whether it be trust in their abilities or trust in their obedience. You also say that the position of 'admin' is based around trust. Well, they're not allowed to Skype either. So obviously they're still not trusted that much.

Um... ok, I'll quote myself: "I've heard of this "incident" with the bad mod. Everyone on this server seems to use that incident to prove any and all of their arguments. That was a worst-case scenario, and that moderator obviously should never have been one." Where in that quote did I say anything that was inaccurate? He was a mod, at one point, and he was demoted for being a bad mod.

Ah, that's true. Like I said, I suck at analogies. *hangs head in shame*

No you don't! That's the problem! You just take the food away from them, because you don't think they have enough self-control. And I'm referring specifically to this server, because as stated, my purpose is to gain the privilege to use Skype ingame with staff. What you do in other games doesn't concern me at all.

That's very noble. But I don't see how being in a Skype call hinders that goal in any way.

This is true, if you have tons of people in one Skype call. I just want to play with my friends. I wouldn't befriend everyone on the server (no offense everyone). I usually only play with groups of 4 friends at a time. And even in the rare instances when I have had 8 people in one Skype call, I've never had a problem with everyone talking over each other. My friends and I are all respectful of everyone in the call. We let each other talk without interrupting. I guess it depends on how talkative and well-mannered your friends are, honestly. But thank you for your semi-support in this issue. I don't have many supporters on these forums, so I needed that.

 

Spoiler

'The purpose of this thread is to point out how still this rule is(in my opinion)'
Fixed it for you.

In the end it's just your opinion, and possibly the opinion of a minority. So you could do a vote, but STTT, as with most gaming communities isn't run on a voting based structure. It's operated by the owner and the owner and his underlings make the decisions.

The bottom line is, it's in place for the protection of staff, and it also prevents us from having to ban the use third-party voice communications altogether.

I was just trying to say we aren't going to cater to a minority in a nice way.

Some people like to work. Some people like to help out. Some people just like to make a difference and are willing to make sacrifices.

The usage of Skype as a staff member has nothing to do with trust, that's the bottom line. If we really trusted people as much as you say we should, all staff should get all the access to the server they want. The files, the configuration panels, etc. But we aren't going to hand that out. The usage of third party voice communications isn't allowed because it's both a liability to whoever is using it and a distraction.

When you refer to 'incident' you're also referring to the events that happened during the time. Referring to him as a 'bad mod' in a tense that implies he was a mod at the time, which he wasn't - and I want that to be clear.

The issue isn't about self control at all. Self control will always be beaten by your sub-conscious reflexes eventually.

How am I supposed to help a player requesting it over voice chat when I can't hear them over the sound of the staff in the Skype call? Not to mention that if a staff member in-game talks in-game I'll hear it through both Skype and the game(you can mute them in-game but that brings a whole other set of problems seeing as Skype's audio transmits faster). Being in a Skype call degrades a staff member's ability to respond to in-game requests.

For the sake reducing the length of the thread and these replies, please only reply to the bottom line.

The bottom line is:
It's both a liability and a distraction. That's enough of a reason to not allow it.

 

Zikeji, you bring up one or two good points, but overall your arguments are flimsy and your typos make your post unreadable in some places. I could make another long reply, disproving the majority of your points, but I won't. However, your "distraction" argument is pretty convincing, so at least I understand the rule now.

And Highwon, you are amazing. I said to myself when I started this debate: "If Highwon replies to this, he'll probably win, somehow." And you have. I applaud you, sir. Your analogy totally explained why the rule is in place. Thank you for speaking to someone with a +6 dumb rating and a whole server against him.

Closing statements: I get why the rule is in place, and if the staff is okay with it, who am I to continue the argument? However, I will want to play TTT with Darth West sometimes through Skype. And I am sad to report that I will have to do that on a different TTT server. It is also highly unlikely that I will ever play on Serious TTT again. It's simply that: too serious, and not enough fun. But I appreciate the staff that keeps it running for those who want to play TTT competitively. Even if I don't agree with all the rules and regulations, I understand that the staff is doing the best that they know how. I may not even like some of the staff, but I am thankful for their replies, because at least they read my post and thought about it. I appreciate the civility, gentlemen (and ladies, if there were any that replied).

*tips hat* And now, I am off to play more Gmod.

 

While we are here, I suggest that we make the rule more clear in the !motd. If one person is confused, it is likely that others are too. We should clarify that we do not recommend using third party communication programs because it can cause accidental ghosting, but we do not disown the idea. Also ForgetfulCat, our staff does the best job they can. What I mean by this is that they are held do a very high standard and are to follow a strict protocol. This means that if you do something, which I am well aware that you know this, they will follow protocol and will take action accordingly. There is no reason to leave the server over one thing, although I will not stop you. I also would like to thank you for conducting yourself in a gentlemanly manner. I appreciate that.