RDM and Leave bans are pointless

Discussion in 'TTT Discussion' started by Dani, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. Dani

    Dani Impersonating Staff VIP

    Or are they?

    I dunno. Some guy complained about them being pointless in chat and I didn't know how to respond because he's kinda right...?

    Why do RDM and Leave bans exist? If someone doesn't leave, good! They got a slay! If they do leave but come back some other time, good! They still got that slay! If they leave and never come back, good! It's essentially a permaban! If I leave before my slay happens and come back later, the slay will still be on me. If I leave after I'm slain and come back, I still missed the round that the slay made me miss.

    What's the idea here? Is this offense a remnant from a time when leaving and quickly rejoining would remove your slay somehow?

    Prove me wrong. Or right. I'm pretty sure I must be missing something here.
     
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  2. Never really thought of it that way. You might be onto something. If we can ensure the slay is tied to their IP so that it will occur anytime they rejoin, and perhaps expand it so that they will get the slay no matter which server they join (if not already done), then, yeah, the whole ban thing seems pointless now. Because they won't get to play again without serving the slay. This would remove a lot of headache by basically eliminating a large portion of appeals that would otherwise occur.

    Making people sit there for no apparent good reason does seem quite silly.
     
  3. Wex

    Wex The enemy of art is the absence of limitations VIP Bronze

    There was a post a while back on this, but in short. If you leave while there's a slay on you it, you're avoiding the punishment. Yes the slay may still be on you next time but if you leave after you get slain, you won't have it next time you jump on.

    I do think that RDM and Leave bans should be removed temporarily and instead add an extra slay. The servers are struggling for population and if you ban someone for 5+ days on the only populated server, they're most likely going to go somewhere else. It's not like a couple years ago when all 4 modded NA servers would be populated.
     
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  4. Right, but @oogabooga epic scary is right: whether you leave or you serve the whole slay, you are going to miss the round, so you got the punishment, even if in principle you copped out to some extent. But like you say, why not just add an extra slay if you leave during a slay? That way you will have to serve a whole slay if you ever want to play here again, and it would be so much simpler and easier for everyone involved. It can't be more work to add a slay instead of a ban.
     
  5. Dani

    Dani Impersonating Staff VIP

    I don't get what you are saying here. Did you not read my original post or do we have different ideas of what the punishment really is? Missing a round is the punishment to me. What do you think the punishment is? The shame of staying and seeing everyone play while you are spectating?
     
  6. Eventful

    Eventful Master of Chat Commands

    In a way, the punishment is having to sit through the round, and not choose when you have to do this. It is a loss of your freedom to leave when you feel like. Your victim never got to choose when they died, and neither do you.
     
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  7. Wex

    Wex The enemy of art is the absence of limitations VIP Bronze

    For a slay to be completely served, they have to be there for the whole round because the people you've RDM'd had to wait the entire round to be over. Otherwise there's no point in slays because people can just get slain at the start of the round and then leave to do something else and come back another time without a slay on them.
     
  8. Dani

    Dani Impersonating Staff VIP

    But that's exactly what they already do. You can do anything you want while you are slain. Just alt-tab and watch some video, right? Or get out of your chair and pee or something? I feel like you're making being connected to the server into a bigger deal than it actually is.

    I kinda like this explanation. You're saying that people could just serve the slay when it's more convenient to them and it would then be less of a deterrent?
     
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  9. Eventful

    Eventful Master of Chat Commands

    Yeah, pretty much. While I do understand the point that you're making, there is definitely need for a punishment imo.

    Edit: Also, it works as a deterrent for sure. The whole idea behind punishments for RDM and pretty much everything is more to stop them from wanting to do it again (and in some cases to protect the victims of course). I wouldn't like to say it's for the purpose of revenge for the victim as much.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
  10. NeverGhostin

    NeverGhostin Mod to remember VIP

    Imma make this ez, they avoiding punishment by leaving. They don’t care about breaking rules so why should we let them back on?
     
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  11. Dani

    Dani Impersonating Staff VIP

    That's not "making it ez", that's just ignoring all the counter arguments that have already been stated.
     
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  12. DocFox

    DocFox The Best Is Yet To Come VIP Silver Emerald

    Rather than accommodating the RDMer, the RDM and Leave rule accommodates the rule-abiding players that just happened to get RDM'd. Think about the perspective of someone that joins a server, gets RDM'd, then the RDMer leaves and nothing is really done. Then try to tell them that, "Oh no, they'll be slain when they join tomorrow, or a few days from now."

    Right now, RDM and Leave bans are a way to show trending in a player's record. We've all received slays, so just looking at how many slays someone has will be an inaccurate representation of their overall record. But, if staff can see that someone continues to RDM and leave they can be dealt with on a much bigger picture.

    I know that it was brought up about server population. Sure, if we ban RDM and Leave players, that will decrease our population. However, if we would let them go unpunished, that will decrease the population of players we want to see on the servers. The rules have a small impact on the population of the servers. Garry's Mod is an old game. It's that time of year when a lot of new titles are released. This kind of thing is expected.

    Unfortunately, I see this community standing on its last legs. What was once a booming community full of drama, fun times, and content has since dwindled back to the state it was when I joined the servers 5 years ago. I can only hope that our community leaders have a few tricks up their sleeves to keep this place going for a few more years before we can graduate to a new game platform.

    I know I kind of went off on a tangent, but it's something that probably should be said.

    Thank you.
     
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  13. Wex

    Wex The enemy of art is the absence of limitations VIP Bronze

    You're missing the point. The punishment is not being slain. The punishment is having to sit out an entire round because you ruined someone else's round. You're not serving the punishment by leaving early.

    I see nothing wrong with RDM and Leave bans when there's multiple active servers. However, when there's one or two populated servers, players will likely jump on another server (Non-SGM) when they're banned.
     
  14. NeverGhostin

    NeverGhostin Mod to remember VIP

    Exactly, proving my point of making it ez
     
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  15. luna

    luna Goodnight moon VIP

    kinda skimmed through everything and I don't think this has been said yet. If someone joins the game with a slay, waits for the round to start, gets slain and leaves, we won't ban that person for rdm and leave because we don't have a way of tracing back to who assigned the slay or why. The problem with just letting them leave and serve it later is that we can't actually guarantee that they will serve the slay. All they have to do is come on the server again later, get slain, and leave whenever without having to serve a full slay. And I suppose there's an argument that we could change it to punish people we catch evading slays like this, but it would basically be able the same thing as rdm and leave already, plus if someone evades their slay without a staff member on, there isn't really anything we can do about it.
     
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  16. I'm pretty sure mods and admins get a message if people leave during a slay, even if they served their slay and are still waiting for the round to end. The message doesn't go away until the round is over and I've seen screenshots (and personally been banned) where I've left in the middle of a slay and it shows a message saying so. RDM and leave bans are stupid for the reasons given above and anyone saying anything like "they're avoiding punishment" is trying to argue that the punishment is not only being slain for a round, taking you away from the gameplay of others, but also inconveniencing REAL LIFE. It's just petty is what it is. They're basically saying "because you killed someone in this video game, we are forcing you to stay at your computer and do nothing but keep this game open while you alt-tab and watch a youtube video and Reddit, affecting your possible real-life time commitments because you inconvenienced 2 minutes of someone's video game." So then they ban you for 5 days, or more, still leaving you with a slay, because you didn't let them force you to spend your time on the server instead of doing anything else, important or not.

    Basically, to punish someone in real life is really petty when that person is going to receive equal punishment anyway. Coupled with reasons given above, they should instead replace RDM and Leave with a second slay.

    Obviously it's different if you mass RDM. But leaving isn't avoiding punishment. They still get the slay. Regardless of when they get slain, mods and admins see if they leave during the slay. Sure, they get to "choose" when to serve the slay, but it's hardly any different from simply alt-tabbing during the slay initially anyway. It's no different then being killed at the beginning of a round as an innocent in terms of wait times.

    The punishment is just petty. And it has no use for "tracking behavior" or whatever that one person tried to mention. That's just bad database management.
     
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  17. luna

    luna Goodnight moon VIP

    Nobody is making you stay at your computer. You can alt tab if you want to do something else on your computer, or you can get up and walk away and do whatever real life thing you need to do.

    And like I said above, they could easily get out of the slay just by leaving, getting on later, and leaving after being slain but before the round ends.
     
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  18. Pacifist

    Pacifist Are you okay? Lead Admin VIP Bronze

    I would assume it gives power to the slay. A slay is essentially a timeout, so if you have the power to just get up and walk away the timeout is basically pointless. The rdm and leave ban is basically just to keep you there.

    Slays are pointless. They are practically unenforceable. You can't make me sit through one, but you sure as hell can punish me if I don't.
     
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  19. Did you even read anything I typed?
     
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  20. This whole reply is the entirety of what I say is petty. Regardless of the punishment for leaving, you're still not enforcing that they're sitting through the slay. You're just punishing them for deciding to take the slay another time. A lot of times, people get these RDM and leave bans for RDMs that happen 3 rounds prior, but mods and admins are just too slow so the people just leave. So you punish these people in real life for something they did in the video game? Pretty petty. They get the slay regardless. Everyone alt-tabs during their slay, the slay IS the punishment that prevents players from continuing to harm others. Punishing them for leaving the server, which also prevents them from harming others? Pretty petty.
     
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