Let everyone read the damagelogs at any time.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Canceled Fish, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. RhazhBash

    RhazhBash Professional Button Presser VIP

    If you think you can do the staff's job better than the staff then apply and prove it.
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    GRYPHN ♫ Thanks for the Memories ♫ VIP

    I think he meant, "Just report it to the mod"
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    How are players going to loophole their way out of a report when reports go by report response, which they are forced to write after they die, before they even get the chance to open damagelogs? Sure there's still the CHANCE that this does end up happening, but players already have many ways to loophole even without the F8 logs, so why take away the best tool for reporting rule breakers and gathering evidence because of a couple idiots? If anything F8 logs would probably help cut down on loopholing, as even a normal player could now gather proper evidence for loopholing

    This is honestly one of those things that should've been added 4 years ago and it actually kinda boggles my mind that we still dont have it. It's like you make us bang rocks together to make a fire because giving us lighters would be too much responsibility.

    Also I really hate the "ThIs HaS bEeN diScUsSeD bEfoRe LOCK THIS!!" attitude because it takes away from legitimate conversation. Please actually counter the points people have written in the thread instead of always crying for a lock
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  4. Agent A

    Agent A Veni, vidi, vici VIP Silver Emerald

    While there is a point there that this has been discussed prior in the past, it doesn't mean that it's useless to create these threads. Discussions can be created out of them, creating different point of views and approaches to the situation. This can help expand one's view of the situation on what the other people has to say on this particular subject. Secondly, tradition (or in other words, it has always been like that way) isn't always the answer. Just because it has been rejected or denied in the past doesn't mean it can't change in the future. Not only that, for every argument, there is an counterargument. Like using console damagelogs, one can argue that the staff rarely uses them in reports because they have access to f8 damagelogs and players tend to report people when they get killed by that person rather going for specific instance of damage (just an example).

    This statement is a good start: "Players don't need access to more information where they could use it to loophole a situation more than use it to report someone." since it provided your point of view.

    I would like to present a counter argument. F8 Damagelogs can be optimized and tweaked. The permissions given to mods in regards to f8 damagelogs is different to those given to admins. The admins can open whenever they can. The mods can open when they die or are in spectator mode. Thus, why not limit the players to be able to open them at the end round where they can get information of the round that just ended. It has been done in other communities. Thus, the idea that it's impossible is out of the window. I'm willing to bet that it is even possible to force the player not be able to open the f8 damagelogs when they get reported. The amount of optimization and tweaking of permissions that has gone into the f8 damagelogs shows that these aren't impossible.

    If you're concern with taking ideas that other communities have done or against the the idea that f8 damagelogs should be available to the public, then I am willing to hear any alternatives or more reasons why it shouldn't be a thing.
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  5. Nathan776

    Nathan776 Administrator Administrator VIP Silver

    I don't think this bothers me all too much tho I can see the point of people backseat moderating etc and honestly we all know that some users would more then likely just use it to start arguing various semantics etc but really I wouldn't be too concerned, in fact it may be beneficial to keep moderators in check etc.
    Imo we should look into some form of trial run at least for periods of time when servers are unstaffed and see how it goes. Allow deathscenes for better reporting evidence. If it goes badly we consider removing it and if it goes well we consider enabling it when staff are on. Ofc we'd have to look into specific commands and remove various ways it could be exploited.
  6. This is like the whole reason I made this post lol. It's not about trusting the mods or admins, it's about not having to rely on them, especially now with the shortage of staff and and frequency of staff mishaps.
  7. Sticky Bandit

    Sticky Bandit Never fall below your standard VIP Bronze

    No, I meant using !report to report the mod in game.
    It grabs attention far better than admin chat, and the mod is going to have to actually look at it every time they check reports, forcing them to do something about your report.
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  8. This wasn't mentioned before, but I'll also say this is true. If you're using Tommy's damage logs, it's extremely versatile, you have the ability to grant and deny permissions solely for damage logs. At no point will an average player be allowed to view damage logs during the round. If admins have this permission, staff members will be alerted through an echo if they see the current round logs being accessed while that player is alive. There is, however, a log before death which can show various sequences of the game and roles, but not every single one - it cuts off at certain points, and is sort of wonky and picks up what it wants - I can see this leading to ghosting if not edited right. Although, people already see what goes down after they die, so there's that.

    The biggest complaint I've seen is, "MUH BACKSEAT MODERATION!" Honestly, just make a rule for it like a ton of servers already do. I can understand the pressure moderators might feel when it comes to as if players are breathing down their neck or they're walking on egg shells constantly, but like someone else mentioned, if you're good at doing it, you're fine. There will always be a handful of players that are ready to bludgeon you with the rules and how it correlates to their shot logs or death scene, so this is a consideration I can somewhat agree with.

    If somebody doesn't like their conclusion I feel it's fair to argue it, but not to a degree where a player becomes overbearing and incessant. I've seen moderators become overly stressed by an influx of reports and begin to skim over them as best as they can while being berated, and while it sucks, moderators should be able to consider players perspectives on situations. The real question is: where is the line drawn between insightful comments to backseat moderating? If someone says, "Hey, at this point you can see him *action*." I think that's genuinely helpful, especially if you're taking enjoyment out of your own game to sit sidelined and handle reports. There is, like I mentioned, a line between helpful and being a nuisance, and that's something I feel is the discretion of the staff member to decide. Don't ban the player, but simply warn them. If they continue, move to a kick and so forth.

    There are multiple scenarios I could use the "why let it happen to begin with" card, and I think this is such an easy cop-out.

    hijackingbecausenotmakinganotherthreadlazyboi - You guys should consider 'deputizing' certain members of the community that can act as mini-enforcers without having the same privileges as a full staff member. Some of your players actually fit very well into this group - just stand out people.
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    GRYPHN ♫ Thanks for the Memories ♫ VIP

    When I was a mod most moderators complained about that, as its been quiet a bit, idk if thats still the case.
  10. Sticky Bandit

    Sticky Bandit Never fall below your standard VIP Bronze

    I've personally always preferred it over admin chat so I don't forget lol
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  11. Timo654

    Timo654 EU BEST VIP Silver

    yknow, you can limit usage right? such as let users view logs in round end.

    is there even any valid reason why this cant be done even though it's been done elsewhere long ago already? there are way better methods for loopholing than logs, and if an rdmer changes his reason completely, yknow, you can just ignore that and slay him anyways, the new reason doesn't count.
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  12. Togo ✿

    Togo ✿ Nobody Gets it VIP Silver

    You should be able to look at the F8 logs any time during the round because this would help stop rdm.
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