How far should mods go to uphold rules?

Discussion in 'TTT Discussion' started by FAHK YHU M8, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. FAHK YHU M8

    FAHK YHU M8 New Member

    I've discussed this with one of the admins in game, to get some quite unsatisfactory opinions.

    The gist of it is; If no problem lies with the players, but a minuscule violation occurs, should a mod/admin step in?
    I.E. A player damages another player, and they begin firing on one another. In spectate, they talk about it and come to an agreement it's not worth getting worked up about, so neither reports the other.
    However, a moderator does the reporting for him, and slays you without a second thought.

    I have always seen some amount of personality with servers. They have rules, when the rules are broken and a player is disadvantaged, they have the option to report the player. It's a happy system.

    Should they step in and create another issue where none lies? Or should they brush it off and say "well both players are happy and nothing more will come of it"?
  2. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    This has been addressed often. The point of upholding the rules on EVERYBODY is that if someone witnesses some shoot someone for no reason, and they aren't punished, then they will think it's okay and will shoot random people. Also, if 2 trolls come in and constantly shoot and forgive one another, but cause confusion in the process, that would ruin the game for a lot of people.
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  3. FAHK YHU M8

    FAHK YHU M8 New Member

    That's insane...
    You'd go as far as ruining the server for people there to actually play instead of just letting the two get karma banned?

    There should be discretion with it. If they're not hurting anyone else, it shouldn't matter.
    Who would come into TTT and think "oh those two are killing each other, guess I should too"? Do you think that little of the community?
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  4. ZeRo

    ZeRo :sneaky: Banned VIP Silver

    The final part you're talking about would require admin discretion, something that's granted to admins+. The admins+ have the ability to bypass certain situations/slays if they feel like it doesn't require punishment. However, it's a rarely used power and only used when they feel its necessary (for very small instances or more severe instances). For example, if a player is still technically playing by the rules, but forcing players' karmas to drop by traitor baiting, then the admin+ has the option to slay them if they feel it's becoming too much of a problem. If a mod however is granted discretion to ignore that situation based on the request of the victim, then nothing would have to happen. Otherwise, mods would generally be required to slay the offender if the victim had done nothing during that instance. But why is this? Because mods are required to follow a set protocol that was made by @Highwon during the time. The only time mods can ever bypass protocol is if an admin grants them discretion for a particular situation only. As for the minuscule damage, some mods also have damage thresholds defined by their admins so they can choose to ignore that situation under their admin's discretion for that particular situation as well.

    As far as should they enforce it, I would say yes they should enforce it unless they have the option to avoid it. Even if the damage is minuscule, the fact that you damaged a player for no reason is still a slayable offense as defined by the MOTD.
  5. FAHK YHU M8

    FAHK YHU M8 New Member

    You're saying a lot of what it is, but I'm not here to debate facts. I'm concerned about the quality of the slay happy mods.
    Neither player wanted the other slain. It was a mess of confusion, we both said we were okay with one another and requested the slay be removed. He even made an account here to dispute it.

    ... man I love that guy.
  6. ZeRo

    ZeRo :sneaky: Banned VIP Silver

    Those slay happy mods aren't doing it because they enjoy it. It's required based on protocol and enforcing the rules as they didn't have discretion nor a damage threshold set by their admin. If you feel it's wrong, then I suggest talking to their admin about the situation. The link to the staff groups is HERE. Otherwise, the slay wasn't wrongly given in this situation.
  7. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    Mods don't usually enjoy slaying for small things. It's like saying that you enjoy having more work to do. You have to deal with the now angry players and try to explain why they are being slain, you have to watch in case they leave while slain, etc.

    EDIT: Sniped by Guilty DX
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  8. Pandora?

    Pandora? Alcoholic in Training VIP Silver

    honestly this sounds like something that could be abused a lot by a frequent RDMer/troll. there's already enough ways to loophole, we shouldn't add another one IMO.
    we as mods just can't let an instance slide. when i send a report on players for unreported rdm, i don't always get to hear the story behind it, so why should i disregard that one instance of rdm over all others?

    edit: by "story behind it" i mean instances where they talked about the rdm between themselves
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. FAHK YHU M8

    FAHK YHU M8 New Member

    It was very clear neither of us were "RDMers/Trolls"
    We specifically told the mods who had been playing for some time it was a mistake, and we didn't want each other slain. We weren't gunning after one another every round.

    I agree that slays should be carried out for those that have no intention of playing the game properly.. but that's not what this was.
    It was saying "I don't care if you two had a misunderstanding and have solved it yourselves, I'm going to stick my nose where it doesn't belong and create more problems."
    All the while providing fake evidence.
    • Dumb Dumb x 2
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  10. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    The evidence wasn't fake, the prop damage that reports in the damage logs is kinda screwy. so 10-30dmg shows up as 100+ dmg but 40+ domg shows properly
  11. ZeRo

    ZeRo :sneaky: Banned VIP Silver

    If you confessed to damaging a player, then you honestly shouldn't be surprised if you got slain for it by someone who is enforcing the rules. It's unfortunate that you feel the slays shouldn't have been given, but they were given based on the proper protocol. I will be locking this thread as the original intention has been covered by myself and the people who have commented on this thread so far. If you feel you haven't talked about it enough, then feel free to pm myself or my fellow colleagues. Until then, cheers!
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
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  12. Pandora?

    Pandora? Alcoholic in Training VIP Silver

    the problem with this as well, is it could spark accusation of favoritism against a mod.
    "how come you slayed me when you didn't slay him"

    edit: and where is the fake evidence coming from? we have the logs and a confession at hand

    edit x2: i sent this before the thread was locked but it sent after for some reason :s but also this type of thing is best if you pm someone of higher authority as they could explain better
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  13. Highwon

    Highwon Owner VIP Silver

    Okay, I'm reopening this thread to allow more discussion on this topic. This is a legitimate concern and let me explain our position on this. We do allow some level of discretion when it comes to these situations for our admins and above. Why is it that we don't allow moderators to exercise discretion in these circumstances? Because we feel discretion is a powerful tool that needs to be handled with caution. In a situation like this one, it might be an easy decision but discretion applies to any circumstance where a rule is broken so it can involve more difficult decisions that we do not feel the moderators are quite ready to deal with. There are moderators on our team that are more than capable to exercise discretion but then we also have new moderators that are not and as such we limit all of them from having discretion. Moderators can however contact their admin for discretion on a case-per-case basis.

    Now concerning the accidental RDM, while we understand there are times where its legitimately accidental, there are many times where its harder for us to discern that it is accidental. There are players who like to "love tap" their buddies on the server and while we would love to allow you to do that, there are bigger problems that can arise from this. Other players might witness this and in turn start attacking you, thinking you are a traitor, and then they're now affected by your not-so-accidental RDM. This can lead to RDM chains and affect innocent players karma. There are times where a traitor might be in the area and also killed in such an RDM chain, and in turn ruin their entire traitor round. I can attest to this because it has happened to me on numerous occasions. These are just some examples, but its not limited to just these consequences.

    Hopefully this sheds more light on our reasoning behind our rules and protocol
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  14. Lone Wanderer

    Lone Wanderer The One and Only VIP

    I think the rules and protocol in place at this community are really great and function well.

    I don't think that what we have in place here hinders people's' experience on the servers. Yes, there are slays on our server that may feel underserved by a player and/or the affected party that happen on our servers (accidental shots/damage, a casually fun duel between friends, RDM that was forgiven, etc.),. But you have to consider that there is a reason behind this; it's not that the staff aren't out to act all mean, ruin your gameplay experience and punish you all day long. They have to enforce the rules that are in place at this community, and those rules are carefully constructed and put in place for reasons that go beyond simple RDM between two players.

    Normally, I would say that in the case that the affected party is forgiven, then that should be okay, right? The only problem is that this could have adverse affects on the server. Other players might not always see the conversation between the staff member and the parties involved in the offense. And in a case like that, other players might see the RDM that occurred and think that it's then okay for them to do the same thing, because that other player wasn't punished breaking the rules. While it does ultimately lie on the person breaking the rules to be responsible and know the rules themselves, it can create a lot of unnecessary confusion when you allow something like forgiveness. But Highwon also outlines the point that forgiveness also requires a fair amount of discretion to use correctly, something that not all staff members at the moderator level are fully ready to use.

    Imagine a case where two friends are fighting each other for the fun of it: both are innocent, and by our rules, are RDMing because they have no reason to be exchanging fire. Now, you would figure this might be something to allow forgiveness for if someone had discretion. But you also have to consider that this fight between two friends could have some adverse effects. Another player could stumble upon this and think it's a real fight between a traitor and an innocent. They jump in and kill one of the two friends, who happens to be innocent. Since he killed an innocent, another player comes by and kills him, and this chain could potentially continue. Now, through your fight, you've indirectly caused other players to lose/ruin their round, as well as their karma, and this isn't fair to them. Now, this whole situation could obviously pan out very differently, to where no other players are affected. But this brings up the point that discretion to forgive can get very complicated. The staff member has to consider the circumstances, who all was affected and who wasn't, along with the history of the issue if there is any. That's something that not all moderators are capable of doing to the best of their ability, so it's something that's given to admins and above.

    As for accidental RDM, as Highwon said above me, there's no real way to tell if something really is accidental or not. I could certainly be alt-tabbed and browsing the web, then click back in only to shoot and damage someone; that would be accidental. But I could also just as easily be lying about it, having intentionally shot someone for no reason at all. If the idea of random damage/kills being an accident was allowed as a legitimate excuse to avoid a slay, a lot of people could very easily use that to avoid being punished for RDM that they commit. And besides, even if it truly was an accident, it wouldn't be fair for someone to have their round lost or hindered by someone accidentally shooting them, only for no repercussions to be had. I know that accidents aren't intentional and can sometimes be out of your hands, but you still have to be responsible and take punishment if you're affecting someone's round for it.

    That's just my outlook on those issues. Hopefully they're in line with the views of the staff team and I'm not just spouting crazy talk.
  15. Carned

    Carned ✘o ✘o VIP Silver Emerald

    As an Ex-Admin who has experienced a HUGE shift in how admins and mods treat players, let me give some opinions.

    Firstly, as explain by Highwon discretion is something only given to admins, sometimes it would be given to mods via their admin on a per case basis, personally i used to avoid doing this due to knowing my judgement was better than any mod.
    Now your case is for small counts of RDM, during my personal time as admin if for example Jon accidentally shot Ned and they were both cool with it being an accident then no slay was given but that was under MY discretion and because both players were happy to accept the accident.
    (No, bullying someone into forgiveness was NEVER acceptable, usually the responses in a report like "Hit me for 10 damage, no slay if it was an accident" ended up with my result as show above)

    However many staff will have disagree'd with my decision but it worked better for everyone and If i was an admin now doing that, i'd probably lose my rank quite quickly.

    Which leads me onto why I felt my way of doing things is best, when Staff RDM eachother accidentally, 90% of the time they won't be slain because they agree to not slay, and if anyone disagree's with me, then you are a liar.

    Obviously we don't want people to exploit this which is why it's left to admins to decide about discretion, and is the single handed best thing about being an Admin is that you can make a decision based on what you know rather than a defined set of rules, but that only comes with experience over a long time of being a mod, to give you an example half the current mod team couldn't be trusted with discretion.

    You will have noted that in another similar thread @TeeZy commented about how we used to be a lot stricter and I agree'd with it, but surely my point is hypocritical well no, back when I was a staff member I genuinely feared my admin and making a mistake, which honestly I think was a better way of doing things, admittedly @Darktooth said he prefers to be on a more personal level with the players which is 100% fine but when was the last time a mod was demoted? (I know but I won't name because of confidentiality) but it was quite a while ago. During my time as an admin I demoted 5-7 of my mods and even suspended @Darth West for a week, all because he accidentally ghosted, why? Because I knew when i was a Mod i didn't want to fuck up, so fucking up should be something you are punished for. (Admittedly when i was first and Admin some of picks were..well shit.)

    So really to conclude considering that point went a little off track, I understand your frustration and honestly agree with you that if obviously an accident then no slay is needed, hell if someone Accidentally RDM's me, 90% of the time i will @ staff to have the slay not put on a player and usually they don't get slain so it does happen. For all the people who say that it has an adverse effect on the server, literally NO ONE cares about any reports other than their own, so you can't pull that card, and if someone does, you are a staff member and should be vocal enough to back your decision up, people will shut up when they are told they are wrong or you have the backing of a superior.

    I hope you can understand why you may be slain for accidents but if you speak with the staff member in a calm and timely manner they may get discretion from an admin ( not all however because most just like to assert their internet authority and slay)
    The rules won't change but you can work to stay within then, try not to accidentally RDM, don't shoot randomly, don't swing at players.

    If you have any follow ups i'll do my best to give somewhat a veteran opinion on them.

    Sorry if i hit any current staff nerves but all i've said it my witnessing and experiences, nothing but the truth here.
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  16. DocFox

    DocFox The Best Is Yet To Come VIP Silver Emerald

    Short and simple explanation from another retired admin: I would only slay for accidental RDM if it caused either 3rd party karma drop or if a player gets killed because of it; this excludes Crowbar fights.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    I actually agree with this statement. A lot more staff are surprised when I would slay myself for accidental rdm than should be. I know I've been seen as pretty strict as a player and staff member, but I'm even stricter on myself. As a former staff member I feel that being strict on myself let's people know that I don't believe in, or like, favoritism.
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  18. Silent Rebel

    Silent Rebel Lead Shitposter VIP

    They should be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, their own lives, in order to uphold the rules.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
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  19. Darth West

    Darth West I am Darth West, Dark Lord of the Sith. VIP

    You know what, fine. I see how it it is .

    *walks away from keyboard*

    *Goes in bed*

    *Cries self to sleep*


    To be fair that suspension made me fear another mess up. This made me do everything in my power to improve and not make any of the same mistakes again. @Carned Best Admin-4ever

    P.s First Carned Mod/Best Carned Mod

    P.s.s Don't be jealous
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