Accepted Expanding grounds for self defense

Discussion in 'Rules and Protocol' started by RhazhBash, Sep 17, 2020.


Which changes do you support?

  1. +1 for the inno vs detective change

  2. +1 for the T vs T change

  3. +1 for both

  4. -1 for both

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  1. RhazhBash

    RhazhBash Professional Button Presser VIP

    So in the last staff meeting we discussed the situations where innocents can kill detectives and traitors can kill teammates. There was a lot of back and forth at the meeting, but the votes were split almost 50/50 and a decision couldn't be made.

    The current rules are these. An inno can kill a detective who calls KOS on them and fires at them, and a traitor can kill a teammate who shoots at them. Two things were proposed at the meeting. First of all, innos would be allowed to kill a D for either firing at them or KOSing them, instead of requiring both. Second of all, traitors would be allowed to kill teammates who KOS them.

    The idea behind these rules is to give players a way to defend themselves against RDMers, with the benefit that if a detective mistakenly goes after an inno that inno wouldn't be helpless. KOSes aren't a joke, and if someone calls one on you then it's safe to assume they're going to kill you when they see you. If you aren't allowed to fight back until they act on their KOS, then they'll get their first shots in before you do. It feels awful knowing you're at a disadvantage against someone you know is about to attack you. Traitors calling out teammates publicly is rare, but allowing traitors to fight back against RDMing teammates could potentially discourage people from doing it with the possibility that confirming the caller as a traitor would make innos not folllow the KOS.

    These changes definitely have their disadvantages. The big one is how much damage these kills can do to the round. If you're an inno and the detective KOSes you, it might be better to take the death than to kill a detective and the 2 innos who go after you for doing it. Traitors killing teammates causes all sorts of issues. We want to keep a meta where being proven matters, and if traitor teamkills become more common that could make people trust players who kill traitors less.

    Personally I support both changes. I wouldn't call it street justice, but it would help when someone comes to RDM when no staff are on. It doesn't open up too many opportunities to loophole, because for a player to use it to kill someone who isn't a threat, it requires another player to call a false KOS and put themselves at risk of getting slain.
    • Like Like x 5
  2. Dodley27

    Dodley27 Dolfin VIP Bronze

    Why isn't this already a thing
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Jabba the Slut

    Jabba the Slut That's Kinky! Lead Admin VIP Silver

    Personally, I am against both of the changes. I don't think you should be able to kill Detectives or Traitor Buddies unless it is in immediate self defense.

    I don't see why you'd take out a proven innocent (Detective) or T-buddy unless it was absolutely necessary to save your life.

    One of the arguments in the staff conversation was that if the Detective KOS's you then you KNOW he's going to try to kill you when he sees you. I could just as easily tell you "Hey Rhazh, I'm going to kill you when I see you." Which you couldn't kill me for, because it's a threat of future traitorous activity.

    It's a -1 from me.
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  4. dazza

    dazza Banned VIP Bronze

    This ^ especially in regards to T on T , like if a T koses, due to t rounds being rarer especially on a populated server you should be able to kill them to become proven as they clearly had the intention to ruin your t round, TTT is all about deceit after all
    As for rogue detectives that go around rdming they are never the kind of detective that even puts things like the dna scanner to use, and on the rare occasion they buy something like a teleporter or the OP jackhammer on modded they would be a lot better in the hands of an inno that isnt going to be an absolute retard,

    then again this is obviously all based on rdm, i cant think of a supporting argument for these changes that would support cases like crossfire or genuine accidents so i think that should be the main topic of discussion
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub

    Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub i'm thinking i'm thinking VIP

    Definite + for the T vs. T change. If a T buddy KOS’s you, then ya, they likely won’t kill you themselves; however you probably will get killed because of the KOS. And the only real way to make that KOS null would be to kill the Traitor who KOS’d you, thus proving yourself Inno (while traitor) and getting rid of a PoS teammate in the process. Seems pretty obvious to me that this should be implemented.

    Dunno about the detective one tho. Also think this thread should be re-worded a lil, as “shooting at” can be interpreted as “shooting in the direction of” (T-baiting/crossfire), rather than “shooting” (meaning hitting/damaging), which I think is what you’re trying to suggest? If not, then killing a T buddy or D for shooting in ur direction (T-baiting) would be a stupid rule
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. RhazhBash

    RhazhBash Professional Button Presser VIP

    The big difference between calling a KOS and saying you'll kill someone is the risk associated with calling a KOS. When you call a KOS you're saying you saw them do something traitorous, that the rest of the innos should take note of it, and that you're confident you won't be slain if someone follows it. A threat is completely meaningless in the context of the round. If someone just says they're gonna kill you when they see you, you can be confident they don't have a valid reason to kill you because if they did they would have called a KOS on you instead.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Mr. Rogers

    Mr. Rogers Lil Tokyo VIP Silver

    half of us would just use this rule change to bait detectives into kosing us as innos so we can kill them

    that being said, +1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  8. Now you just somebody that I used to know VIP Silver

    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Voca

    Voca o.o Administrator VIP

    The way I see it.

    Detective: *Casually T-baits you*
    Toxic Player: "You finna die today!"

    T-Buddy: *Accidentally KoSes you in crossfire while you both are fighting someone, he apologizes and calls it off*
    Toxic Player: "KoS can never be called off so I kill you and will have you slain if I get hurt by the KoS*

    From my perspective changing it only leaves more room for toxic players to get away with shizzle they usually wont get away with.

    Killing a detective for baiting or a KoS is pointless.
    And Traitor Self defense works fine as it is.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. Elvis

    Elvis TheRockStars VIP Silver

    The thing that I never understood when I first joined the community, is why we weren’t allowed to kill detectives who called a kos on yourself. They are announcing to the server “hey fuck this kid up”, and there’s nothing you can do about it. We should be allowed to kill detectives in the same way we kill innocents when it comes to KOS. It’s not a matter of toxicity, it’s just a matter of common sense.

    If the KOS was indeed crossfire, then no one will be slain anyway. There isn’t any room for toxic people to get away with things, we have other rules in place to protect against stuff like that happening.

    You might be right, if a detective KOS’s you or someone sees you damage/kill a detective, you are as good as dead, but so are you if anyone else was to call the KOS. With anyone else we are able to defend ourself, but we can’t when a detective is brought into the mix.
  11. -Vader-

    -Vader- VIP

    I for one kill the detective who calls a KOS on me. I don't care if I get slain. It is your duty as a detective to be a detective. If you call out a false KOS, that is on you, detective or not.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  12. capri sun

    capri sun VIP

    After what happened yesterday, I'm totally down for killing a T buddy who koses you (I understand crossfire totally, but voice chat when no ones around? Nonsense.)
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. Etched

    Etched That One Gay Guy VIP

    +1 if a detective calls me out or tazes me he deserves to die.
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Titan

    Titan SGM's official music nerd Administrator VIP Bronze

    No to detectives shooting at innos. A KOS is fair game but killing a detective for just shooting at you introduces far too much opportunity for toxic game play and loopholing.

    As for the traitor change, i killed a t buddy today for KOSing me and it felt good. So. As a traitor you're supposed to be presumed innocent, so it's only natural to defend yourself against a KOS.
  15. Silent Rebel

    Silent Rebel Lead Shitposter VIP

    -1 to being able to kill detectives who Kos you.

    +1 to being able to kill t buddies who kos you. My reasoning for this is as follows; if a person koses you, normally you kos them back. If someone koses me and i dont kos them back it's almost like I'm self implicating myself.

    Detectives lives are worth more than inno lives. I buy detective almost every round. If I kill some innos along with traitors, it will help the innos. A detective has to kill 4 (or 3 idk not doing math right now) innocents to make it worth 1 traitor life. Even if I rdm 2 innos and still manage to get DNA and kill a traitor it will help the innocents win overall. Allowing the innocents to kill detectives will only make it more easy for traitors to win, and the rounds are already in favor of the traitor as it is.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. Wolfy53

    Wolfy53 VIP

    I agree with @Jabba the Slut

    But I also don't agree if that makes sense. My mind is telling me no but my body is telling me yes.

    It's like 51/49 for me. Can't deny it would feel good killing the D for calling you out without any punishment coming to you. As far as killing a T buddy that calls a KOS on you, that is very rare and most of the time followed by no, no, no in chat.

    I feel like approving both is best in my opinion. I feel the same about this as I do about being allowed to T bait people until they shoot you so you can kill them. Kind of messed up but seems fine to me. I would be lying if I said I have not done this a few times myself.
  17. Cash

    Cash I staff the proper way Banned VIP

    +1 to both

    If my t buddy koses me in order to try and ruin my round, I should be allowed to kill them and save my round until an actual inno finds me guilty

    Dets kosing innos gets them killed (random or not), shooting obviously also gets them killed. Don't see why shooting + KOS is needed to defend yourself - you don't need that to defend against someone you know is proven (+ a det that tases me and nullifies my reaction time to any T acts/players shooting me + possible instadeath gets accepted)

    (if "i vs d" gets changed, accept this thread as it's similar)
  18. Robyn

    Robyn Floof Moderator VIP Silver

    +1 for the first one, I’ve had many cases where it made more sense for me to kill in console than to fight the detective because I would be at a disadvantage and lose karma.

    -1 for the 2nd one because two traitors could just kiss each other whenever and whoever wins the fight is proven. Thus making the thing about proven people being trusted even less often.
  19. Cash

    Cash I staff the proper way Banned VIP

    So you'll just let your tbuddy kill you for themselves to be proven? If they kos you, you should be able to respond as an inno would when kosed by a t
  20. audrey

    audrey batty VIP

    in my opinion, it's just like... play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    if you're going to call a KOS on someone, you should be fully willing to accept that they're going to try to kill you to defend themselves. likewise, if you're not confident enough in a KOS to follow it yourself immediately then you shouldn't be calling it. why would anyone call a KOS if they don't intend to shoot you immediately unless they're trying to RDM without losing karma?

    these rules encourage better gameplay and less judicious uses of callouts. HOWEVER, i don't think you should be able to kill a detective who simply shoots near you with no associated KOS or anything. if they're just t-baiting you, you shouldn't be allowed to kill them.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
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