Can we Clarify Harassment?

No. I don't desire a list. If you are going to make claims like that, I would appreciate it if you read more than the immediate post

I don't have a record of our conversation. I have to clear my computer's data regularly or it crashes. We were discussing about Sithmaster's warning against me for calling Roz Toxic, saying I don't like him, and telling him to fuck off. During that discussion, I asked you if just saying "I don't like you" would be considered harassment, and you said yes, if that person is offended by it, then pretty much anything can be considered harassment.

 

I read nothing of this thread other than anything after my initial post because it's 3 pages of catching up on. So I asked for a tl;dr and got one.

Yo if I said that I dont know what I was on, but I'm not gonna accept these words being put into my mouth right now. If there was a picture of me saying that then I would gladly be demoted right here right now, but in any case take what I said earlier and that's my thought on the matter because it's not hard to determine when you are harassing someone and when you aren't. It's not difficult. It's not at all. Any question about harassment, ask an admin, they'll tell you yes or no if you can't figure it out. We know what is and isn't harassment and what you're saying I apparently said is unbelievably wrong. We as an admin or a staff member, the unbaised third party, come in and you may give your story why it isnt harassment, and the other will say how it is, and we'll meet at a conclusion based on our training and just general knowledge of being a good human being.

 

Can I give a serious suggestion, while only skimming through this thread partially?

Why not just be nice to each other? If someone bugs you, ignore them. If they're being aggressive, report them- there's staff. We're literally are here to deal with it.

Yes- the rule may be vague, intentionally so. But when there's such a hot debate over throwing 101 scenarios out there to see what you can get away with- then I think you may want to step back and consider what you're actually arguing.

I'm saying this as a friend, @Silent Artemis - just chill out bro. Be nice, stay calm, and be here to have fun.

 

The exact phrasing is off. Re-reading, I don't think the "pretty much anything" part is accurate. However, you did at least imply that harassment is determined by how much the individual is offended, of that I am certain

 

Ther isnt a debate about throwing scenarios out to determine what is or isnt harassment at all. People saying that either didn't read or are ignoring what I am suggesting/saying. Which is there is at least some general borderlines so that two different staff members wouldn't have completely different ideas of harassment, and then an additional 'don't flag something for harassment if the people involved don't feel harassed'

 

If the individual is offended yes it can be considered harassment depending on the verbiage used, the exchange, how heated everything got, etc. etc. etc. etc.

 

I brought it up for a different reason initially in the OP of this thread, but people where saying a political insult (Insulting a political party or person) would not be harassment. However, a political discussion could easily be deemed harassment by using that standard, because it offends, verbiage could be rude, the exchange could be heated, all sorts of things.

 

Silent and I spoke very very very briefly on steam. I have to go to a meeting though so I agreed to move it here.

To reiterate- we were talking about why the rule is vague, and Silent said he understood why it was vague, and repeated that the rule needs clarification or accepted nuance.

I've expressed that there's issues with this, and to maybe better present this I also one thing of @Silent Artemis:

Write the rule then.

If we added this rule to the rules, how would you phrase it, and what guidelines would you give it? Exactly which writing would you write in to the rulebook?

I'll reply when I get a chance.

 

Politics is a whole different subject compared to what you were asking about in the past few posts to what I said.

 

This thread offends me, I'm reporting you all for harassment.

We could just remove the harassment rule all together. Let anyone say anything to anyone. Imagine that world for a moment.
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Now think of why we have the rule to begin with, to keep players from intentionally degrading each other's experience on the servers and forums. Exactly what degrades the experience for one user doesn't degrade it from another's. So setting and exact definition is seeing that some people are right, and some are wrong on something that's opinion based.

Instead of redefining harassment rule, consider redefining protocol. If a player reports they are feeling harassed by a player, the staff online requests the players do not directly interact in any conversation together outside immediate gameplay. Then if they even talk to each other you can proceed with the protocol, warm kick ban. This also applies to the reporter, which will make people think twice before complaining about harassment, hopefully meaning that harassment complaints will naturally be more focused on more severe cases.

For staff offline, the player follows a protocol before a report is valid. Provide evidence the player requested the reported not to talk to them politely. "Please do not speak to me" player provides evidence that they make the sane request again before any further harassment is considered valid. If reported provides evidence that the player was still talking to them after asking for no more communication then reported is not punished for harassment.

My intention is to make reporting more of a pain so more severe cases are what were reported, and a player can't report just one single thing sent to them, or can't egg someone on with the intention of getting them banned for harassment while still allowing players to have an environment they can feel safe in. Harassment can still be broad, but if someone is sensitive just don't talk to them. If they report everyone then eventually they put themselves where nobody talks to them and they can't talk to anyone

 

I'm not one for exact wording so I will try and speak generally here, so please accept room for error of something seems reasonable but a little bit off
1. The people involved must express some distaste or make a report for it to be considered. If it is in shoutbox, Teamspeak, whatever then yeah, that involves everyone. But if it is a personal comment, in a semi-personal setting, then don't get involved.

Spoiler: Examples

1. Player A saying "You suck" , or some other term that insults the individual, as part of a conversation on their wall or part of a thread would not be considered harassment unless Player B expressed clear distaste or reported player A.
2. Player A saying "You suck" in open chat could be considered harassment
3. Player A saying a generally insulting term, like saying "You nigger" as part of a conversation on their wall or thread could be considered harassment

Noctorious pretty much said what I would want to say above, and much better. I guess I am more interested in the protocol for harassment than defining harassment itself

 

Some immediate issues I see here:

This is unnecessary. Staff would never see if it was in a fully private matter (!p, steam messages, forums messages, etc.)

What constitutes as semi-personal? Profile messages are messages directly meant for the profile page that are left on. By this verbiage staff members can no longer prevent obvious forums of harassment on members profile pages. Furthermore, if the user does not specifically know that they must report harassment in order for it to be acted on, even if incredibly obvious, that user is just going to leave and it's going to reflect poorly on the community.

Except, as Robo has stated, this is context dependent. Leaving this as an example 100% prevents staff from acting against this as a situation. For example, a user recently expresses that they are currently depressed, don't feel like continuing on, etc- and then here comes @Silent Artemis commenting "You suck" on their profile. Staff can not act on this now. Says so in the rules. and considering the context and considering the environment, it's very likely the user will never even report it, accept it as fact, making the situation even worst. Context is incredibly important for harassment, and this unfortunately leaves limitations when trying to define it.

This contradicts what is said before though. A wall message is semi-personal, so it would need to be reported. This also goes against your first example.


Every issue that I mentioned above is relieved by our current rule. I don't feel there needs to be any change to it, or any further clarification. Especially considering the fact that to avoid violating the harassment rule you literally only need to be a socially decent person and avoid conflict. If you're having issues with this, then message a staff member and they can help you with this. My steam has always been open to you, as well as you had gotten offers from at least a couple others within the past couple of days.

 

I'm going to clarify this above the others because I think Noctorious conveyed my intent better. There is a difference between saying "You suck" and saying "You are a nigger". Regardless of the severity, just saying "You suck" wouldn't directly insult anyone but the target. Sure, people might get offended on behalf of another person, but that is what I am trying to avoid. However, calling someone a nigger is more universally insulting.

What I would like to see prevented is a staff going through profiles, threads, whatever, coming across an argument, then going and warning/banning one or both of the players involved, even though it was a personal argument, they didn't say anything overtly offensive (Like nigger), and neither of them felt harassed or offended..

 

Except that's not what it says. You took a very specific example, and removed absolutely any and all context- thus tying staffs hands and something that should very clearly be handled. Our current rule allows for this to be addressed appropriately already.

Statements that aren't overtly harassment are already ignored typically. Hell- there's a couple of good examples on my profile page between you and I where you may have absolutely reported me- that other staff even liked because they recognized it was playful banter between you and I.

There is already a very very very simple way to prevent getting warned/banned. Don't insult other users on their profiles or in a thread. If you are being harassed personally or even if you just want someone to leave you alone- let a staff member know.

I know you're trying to find a way to appropriate your actions, and it is clear by this thread and the number circles and laps that it has done that you feel like your punishment is unjust. Especially when your examples given on your rule change were mostly relevant to you. I'm sorry that you feel that way, I really am. I really do feel like you need to take a few steps back and consider what everyone is saying. Because Silent, You were not in the right. You're a good person. Sometimes it's okay just to accept that you may have taken it a step too far and move on.

 

I am 100% aware that I was in the wrong with Rozboon. I have stated that multiple times. I am not and have not defended that. What I do say and think is wrong is a staff coming on, deciding that something is offensive to someone else, without contacting either party, and giving punishment for it.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, but unfortunately, it's necessary for the numerous examples that have already been given.

 

Sure! Harassment : When you hurt someone's feelings.

Or in today's world:

When someone pretends their feelings are hurt to benefit themselves to cause detriment to another person.

rate dumb

 

No it's not. It's really just not. Why can't a staff member take 1 minute to shoot the message "Hey, did so and so saying this offend you?"
What if it was friendly banter like you mentioned above, but the staff didn't recognize it as such? Say both players get banned over it. Yes, they can go and contact staff through steam, but it is a huge hassle for something that was incredibly easy to avoid

Edit: And this means that a player who knows someone is easily baited could say something rude to get a response. Obviously they are baiting, but if the person IS baited, they suffer for it. Two players doing this to an individual could get that individual banned without risking a ban themselves

 

I've already answered this. I'm honestly not up for running laps today.

 

We don't allow people to rdm even if they both claim they are okay about it, why would we allow a player to blatantly harass each other out of the blue and not act upon it immediately, to prevent further damage? Context is key, and the 'admins textbook' covers every case presented in this thread quite well.