Answered Calling a Kos on a dead innocent.

I've passed by this incident today, as a Innocent called out a dead innocent, I tried to kill the innocent for it but I failed, in the end causing his death, is this considered rdming

I have some things to take note.

1)It is considered Traitorous act for calling a Kos on the innocent (note that it did not say dead or alive innocents)

2)Does this falls into the act of T baiting if the person were to be Innocents?



** For those people who can't understand my complication, here's a straightforward version

A got killed by some caused and is found to be a innocent
B wants to make a joke around or is being serious about the kos and called a kos on A
C found out that A was innocent and proceeds to shoot B.

 

I wouldn't believe this to be T-baiting, so what you did was RDM

KOS does stand for Kill on Sight. If you can't kill the person who is KOS'd, it nullifies the request
Calling KOSes on confirmed dead, anyway, isn't traitorous because anyone can call a KOS and they know the role. If they call KOS on an alive or presumed to be alive inno, it's a T act

However, it could be like calling a KOS on an alive Detective. You know they have to be innocent, and calling a KOS implies they're a traitor
Since you know the Detective couldn't be a traitor, you can kill the person who called the KOS
Although I agree with the point I made above rather than this, but I guess I'm just as confused to this as well

 

My stance on this, is that player B is still false KoSing, as he has full knowledge that he is calling a KoS on an innocent. This is similar to KoSing a proven innocent, if he had seen the innocent kill a traitor or do any other action earlier in the round to become innocent. He is fully aware that the player is innocent, but decides to call a false KoS, which he can be killed for.

With that said, what you did was not RDM, as you were killing a potential traitor who called a false KoS. As for your question about it being T baiting or not, I would say no, since this is similar to KoSing yourself as an innocent. Is it a traitorous act? Yes. Is it traitor baiting? No. The reason it is not traitor baiting is because it is considered RDM, not traitor baiting, on the false KoSer's end, as he has fully knowledge that he is innocent but gets himself killed, damaging other's karma and potentially getting them killed.

To sum it up, it is RDM if you are inno and false KoS yourself, which is what you are essentially doing here. You are calling out someone that you know is innocent, which in turn, is a KoS upon yourself; which is why it is RDM and not traitor baiting.

I hope this quenches your curiosity, and if other staff disagree with my thinking or have other reasonings, please post on here.

Sincerely,
CDriscoll

 

On the other side of things, I would consider this to be RDM.

The reason a KOS can be considered traitorous is because you are attempting to get a player killed. Once they are killed, they turn out to be innocent and the it becomes a false KOS.

Because you cannot cause the death or harm to a dead player, you cannot be killed for or punished for it if you were the person calling it.

 

The only motive to call a false KOS on an already dead innocent is to troll players that may not have been paying attention to the fact that the said player was already dead. There's no way that KOSing a dead innocent helps any aspect of gameplay and I would say that the player calling the KOS should be punished if it causes him to be killed.

 

When someone calls a KoS I normally go to the scoreboard to mark them as kill, but if I'm distracted or in a firefight and have to go later I won't notice they were dead when it was called.

So when I go, 10-20 seconds later and I see that they're ID'd and inno, I'll mark the person that called it as kill for a false KoS.

I think calling a KoS on a dead innocent should operate on the same level as calling off a KoS, if someone noticed they were already dead and killed you anyway that would be RDM. If they didn't notice, it wouldn't be.

 

I knew that there would many yes and No here, good thing I pointed this in, we really need a confirmation on whether this should be a kosable act or not, I've already approached some staff member to begin with, and this caused me a very huge confusion on which is right and which is wrong, would be very nice if we can have a finalized vote on this through the member of the community OR the highest staff.

 

@Muffin @Darktooth @Slicck @Disruptionz


Would you like to take a look at this? A few of us have stated our opinions on the matter, but an official statement would be nice.

 

I absolutely see this as KOSable.

If you KOS any player, you should be aware of the consequences that follow that action. If that player is innocent, someone will more than likely attack you. Not all players have the time to stop and check the tab-list every few seconds to be able to confirm that the player was already dead before the KOS. Also, what if the traitor didn't notice that the KOS they're about to call is on an already dead player?

For example, a traitor decides he's going to false KOS Bob, but get into a defensive position first. He gets to his nice cozy spot, calls the KOS, and then someone who knew that Bob was already dead calls the T out on the false KOS and KOSes him. I'd say that counter-KOS is fair.

Ultimately if the player who calls the KOS knows the dead player is dead and innocent, this is a problem they're creating. I say they should be killed for it, and it would be justified, and not RDM. This is how I was taught, and how I think it should be. I would mark this finished, but obviously, there seems to be some dispute on the matter, so I'll tag the leads.

@Slicck @Darktooth

Edit: Ninja tagged, sorry for the double tags, Slicck and Darktooth.

 

I agree with the majority of the staff here. The moment you say, "KoS" and then someone is inno is dead, you should be paying attention to who you are KoSing to begin with. I don't see the excuse otherwise unless you had been caught up in something, they died, and you didn't realize it. 9 times out of 10 people will say, "Hey, they are dead." And you will generally reply. "Oh, Whoops."

Rarely does anyone think twice about it, nor do many people kill you for it. but I see this as well within the right to be killed for if I made the mistake.

 

I'm hoping a higher up can come in and give a final verdict on this soon.

As for myself; I think it should be KOSable. Even if it's a joke said by a player, it's an intention to get the said KOS'd person killed.

 

In this case, I would consider B's actions traitorous, but not RDM. RDM only comes into play when your actions affect the round of the person you attempted to get killed, and in the case of an already-dead person, you did nothing to them. I consider this slightly different than calling a KOS on yourself (which can be RDM) because of the fact that the person who KOSed the dead innocent may not have known at the time that the innocent was dead; whereas when you KOS yourself, you know your role and status. However, I would say that frequent use of this in order to get yourself killed and lower the karma of others is definitely trolling.

I call it traitorous because there is no requirement that players keep constant track of the scoreboard, as Zikeji said above- all anyone is expected to know is that B KOSed A, not when or how in the chain of events it happened.

As for whether or not C RDMed: to be perfectly honest, if you KOS someone who is dead and known to be innocent, you deserve what's coming to you for trying to mess with people. Why would we punish the player who brought the justice that YOU ASKED FOR? This is like trying to report someone who killed you for traitor-baiting.