A Serious Discussion Regarding the Irony of our "Serious" Community, as well as Fascism.

Discussion in 'TTT Discussion' started by Drunk Dog Christmas Dog, May 20, 2015.

  1. Drunk Dog Christmas Dog

    Drunk Dog Christmas Dog i'm thinking i'm thinking VIP

    First off, I would like to ask that this not be locked, censored, or deleted because of simple discussion, and I will reinforce the reasoning for that request later.

    For the majority of my time here, even being permanently banned, I have seen STTT as an amazing community. One which prides itself on fairness, logic, and maturity. As well as, of course, being a very fun place to be; However, I've been noticing certain things more and more lately, which to me seem absolutely wrong, and go against what I personally believe we stand for.

    My question is, what is so wrong with discussion here? Why is it that every time any sort of actual serious discussion comes up, it's met with staff members exhibiting forceful termination of the discussion, and then sweeping it all under the rug by unnaturally changing the topic? Why are we told to "take it out of the shoutbox", or "stop talking about it"?

    The reasoning behind why we're being told to stop having certain conversations can generally be categorized into three reasons:

    • Staff members believing we do not need to know the information.
    Well, I guess that is an easy decision for you, as someone who knows the information, to withhold it from others (not like it makes any difference to you, does it?) I'd like the people doing this to keep in mind that every single person here is a member of this same community (obviously). What goes on here is interesting and important to us. If something somewhat big happens to someone or something here, we want to know, and there's no reason to not let us know and discuss it except for the reasonings: that the person(s) in question does not want people to know (we should respect their right to privacy be it the case), or that it's something that is currently unsettled, and that would be hindered by discussion/people finding out about it too soon.

    • Staff members believing it will lead to a "heated" debate (i.e. Harassment).
    If you haven't noticed for some reason, there's no rule stating that certain discussions aren't to be spoken about (other than illegal ones). There is, however, a rule stating that harassment isn't allowed. So maybe instead of censoring an entire topic, exercise some form of punishment/warning on those participating in harassment from it, and let the rest of us continue with our simple discussion. Also, stopping a discussion before any harassment occurs because it is your belief that it will become "heated", is being overcareful and unfair.

    • Staff members believing there's no reason to talk about it, and therefor we shouldn't be allowed to talk about it in the shoutbox.
    This one is truly incredible, and it goes hand in hand with "The shoutbox is not the place for that". The fact that something related to STTT, our community and what the forum and shoutbox is intended to be used to talk about could be considered to have no merit, and therefor be censored, whilst at the same time we're allowing one of our own Lead Admins to post 5 pictures of Nintendo's Falco, and the word "Falco" five times, with no explanation or context, is insanity. The next time one of you think of saying "Because there's no reason to talk about it" to someone discussing something relating to the community, just think of all the unrelated nonsense that is posted and allowed in the shoutbox every day.

    Lastly, I'd like to apologize for generalizing "staff members", not all of them exhibit these tendencies, and I would also like to point a finger, not only at certain staff, but at members of the community as well. Just as how we are "SeriousTTT" and need to allow the discussion of serious topics, we also need to meet those discussions with maturity, and not turn to harassment as soon as someone disagrees with you.

    If you feel the same way, then show your support. If not, then discuss it with me. Thank you for taking the time to read this.
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
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    POP STAR have a nice day VIP Emerald Bronze

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  3. Drunk Dog Christmas Dog

    Drunk Dog Christmas Dog i'm thinking i'm thinking VIP

    Why not add some actual discussion on what I said rather than posting something which adds nothing aside from undermining the time I spent writing this and my feelings towards it? There's really no need for that, is there?
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    POP STAR have a nice day VIP Emerald Bronze

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  5. Big Al

    Big Al I hit em' up VIP

    Here's the problem Drunk,

    While transparency is a good quality for any organisation to have, too much of it can lead to problems. Particularly regarding sensitive topics, and I'm sure you know the kind that I mean.
    Let me give you an example instead of trying to word what I mean:

    Let's say Tim and Josh are best friends. Not long before joining the community they both attain staff ranks and Tim ends up in direct supervision of Josh.
    Through the months, Tim shows egregious favoritism to Josh, bailing him out of just about every situation that there is.
    James (the lead admin) finds out about this and demotes them both immediately on the spot.

    Now a lot of this was under the hood so not everybody got the full story. A shoutbox/chatbox is a public place where you get immediate responses, can't edit your posts and it's otherwise unfiltered discussion.
    A full-on conversation about the Tim/Josh situation could easily result in he-said-she-said back and forth arguments about what really happened.
    When you have a topic as heated as something like this, arguments about it can very quickly escalate into community wars and people taking sides.

    If you've ever been in a community with a 'laissez-faire' policy around the discussion of sensitive topics, you would know that those communities tend to have cesspools of drama.
    Nobody is trying to 'shut-out' these topics Drunk, it's just that a chatbox isn't the best avenue for the discussion. Most staff/members are happy to have discussions about them in private through TS or Steam, or PM on the forums etc.
    This way the discussion can be limited to a rational 1-on-1 conversation without 100 different opinions on 'what really happened' interjecting and causing a chaotic dramastorm.

    I know it's hard to understand at first because it seems like truth-masking, but when you let things get out of hand you end up with mass demotions/resignations because of the grief it causes everyone. And these things get out of hand faster than you realize.

    EDIT: Guys come on try to at least give some input instead of just down-rating the guy. It's important to have these kind of questions brought up so we can all get some clarity.
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  6. Salisian

    Salisian An unbroken series of successful gestures VIP

    I just down-rated the post because he Godwin's Law'd us.

    Nobody likes a strawman.
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  7. Ravin

    Ravin Determination VIP

    There is a difference between having a discussion and someone putting their nose into someone elses business. It is unneeded and discouraged/frowned upon.

    Parties involved are the only ones who needed to be informed, and not necessarily anyone elses business. Its a matter of respect for all parties involved and really, its not our business to tell you.

    Your post literally goes in a circle in on itself, See Salisian's statement above, and it will cause a heated discussion. It is not something you need to know, nor do you need to talk about it because you are not involved. If you were, you would be included.
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  8. Python~

    Python~ Young Bard VIP Silver Emerald

    I have been in a few debates in shoutbox that have been asked to stop being talked about, politely.
    While the name of the servers are called "SeriousTTT', it shouldn't be assumed everyone is serious and likes discussing real world problems
    Some problems hit too close to home or people want to forget about them. Bringing them up and discussing them further may hurt them
    As well, many people play games to get away from their daily life and troubles for a time, and while the community is mature for the most part, bringing it up in their 'escape from reality' isn't the best choice

    People who would like to carry on or talk about these issues are asked to take it to a private place, which is for the best
    You can invite anyone to the discussion, anyone can leave, and it can go on for however long in a private setting
    However, if you discuss it in shoutbox, everyone is forced to read about issues they don't want to read about when all they really want to do is have fun and kid and tease and joke

    We should respect everyone that's apart of this community, even if it means not bringing up and discussing serious things based off the fact there's "Serious" in the name of the servers
    Even I realize when a discussion has gone too far
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  9. Muffin

    Muffin Fresh Baked VIP

    I have literally witnessed several Admins and Lead Admins having discussions on many topics, often ones that didn't even involve the person whom the discussion was being held with. Do we discourage topics like this to be discussed in shoutbox? Sure. Lot's of people would be given false or semi-false information, and would form false opinions about matters that don't even concern them in the first place. It also tends to not be super enjoyable to follow and watch. Public discussions tend to go too far in most cases as well. How would new users react to this? Surely it couldn't be a positive first impression, and we know you only get one shot at a first impression.

    You also point out that we don't think some things should be public knowledge. Well, honestly, alot of things should not be known to the public. It's not the public's place to know some of the information about various topics exclusive to Staff Members, and if said public doesn't have access to all of the accurate information, how can they have a legitimate debate/discussion on that topic?
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
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  10. usually it's because the shoutbox is spammed with arguments that no one cares about.

    i dont mind it anyway, it doesn't affect me, and as long as there are no riots then it's all kk
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  11. Zikeji

    Zikeji Repoleved VIP Emerald

    The shoutbox is not the place for serious discussions. If you're going to start a discussion that could end up taking pages of the shoutbox in the discussion, stop! The shoutbox is for light conversation, not in-depth discussions.

    In one of the previous communities I was with, they removed the shoutbox because it discouraged posting. I hope it doesn't come to that here.

    If you have a lengthy topic you want to discuss, the forum is literally right there, make a new post for it. Don't discuss it in the shoutbox, the shoutbox isn't meant for that and definitely wasn't designed with that in mind.
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  12. Opii

    Opii Keep it Simple. VIP

    When I first became moderator back in July of 2014, I would have entirely agreed with you and advocated for the secrets the higher ups kept hidden to be released to the public community. You can ask @Sinz; while I was under him, I was nothing but curious and asked a million and one things of the information being held from us; but little came of that.

    I then became an administrator and some of this information was more readily available to me. I realized why some information was held; not because the information was tip-top secret, but because it would only cause players to do one of many things: 1. Start drama (even more drama than the person it truly affects would have wanted) 2. Target the person the information concerns, and at times 3. Split the community entirely causing every word said in shoutbox, the forums, or on the servers to be come trigger words for sporadic arguments.

    All of these make the STTT community toxic and down-right unenjoyable and it occurs every time some form of big scene occurs which is why we limit speak of these subjects in shoutbox; a place really just meant for new players to make new friends, friends to talk about light-hearted subjects, and for people to feel comfortable to speak in (as long as they themselves are not disrupting the shoutbox).
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  13. Carned

    Carned ✘o ✘o VIP Silver Emerald

    I like discussion and arguments so yeah i agree.

    Shit gets covered up way to quickly because everyone is wrapped in cotton wool. If you cant take debate get off the internet.

    Example would be the locking of BlueSkys thread, because it caused discussion about morals, it was locked for no good reason.

    So yeah, go drunk!
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  14. Opii

    Opii Keep it Simple. VIP

    To be fair, the entire thread became "flame Bluesky for having questionable morals" which was not what he intended the thread to be about. If you want to discuss the morals of being in a relationship, make a thread about it(this goes for all topics) and have people volunteer to discuss their own morals/be open to criticism, not go on someone else's thread and criticize them when that's not what it was intended for, which was why it was locked.
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  15. Carned

    Carned ✘o ✘o VIP Silver Emerald

    I'm partial to disagree, he did make a thread about breaking up with people, he just chose to be insensitive, its like me making a 9/11 joke and expecting not to get hate, then request someone to lock it because i can't handle what i brought upon myself, judging by the ratings received on the thread people took my argument to be a general consensus and would really apply to any relationship, not specifically his.
  16. Drunk Dog Christmas Dog

    Drunk Dog Christmas Dog i'm thinking i'm thinking VIP

    One of my ideas on how things should be in relation to that was that in a situation where the discussion turns into harassment or flaming people, we should punish/warn the players participating in the harassment/flaming instead of locking the entire thread and punishing everyone's rights. It just seems unneeded to me. Hate the player, not the game, you know?
  17. Muffin

    Muffin Fresh Baked VIP

    Or we can go about as we have for a long time now and avoid that whole situation as well as possible. It seems to have worked decently well enough thus far, even through events that caused lots of controversy throughout the community.
  18. Opii

    Opii Keep it Simple. VIP

    Understood, I also disagreed with his insensitivity and overall attitude in the thread but anonymity doesn't excuse anyone from hijacking and start a flame thread. Even in reality there are those who have "wrong" opinions and an insensitive attitude that decide to make their behavior public. We should do as we do in reality, ignore them until their punished, not attack them and get yourself punished/detained in the process.

    Completely understandable, but your privileges weren't revoked. If you'd like to continue the thread, please feel free to make a new, more civil thread on the same topic. I do agree, warning points/warnings/punishments should be applied to flamers and harassers, including the person being flamed/harassed if they feed the fire or provoke it further.
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  19. Muffin

    Muffin Fresh Baked VIP

    Honestly, I love the idea of discussion when it comes to topics that are worthy of discussion, but often ones such as bluesky's post end up only fueling hostile behavior, in which at that point, what point is there to keep the thread up and open, if it's just a bash on a person or multiple people?

    In this case, I feel like the best course is to take down the thread, warn people if necessary, and go on from there. Although I would like to think most of us should be mature enough to discuss things without harassing one another.
  20. Opii

    Opii Keep it Simple. VIP

    Agreed, I meant that punishments be applied where they should after a thread is locked to deter those involved from harassment/insensitivity/immaturity.
    Last edited: May 20, 2015