What exact problem is being fixed here?

Discussion in 'TTT Discussion' started by wink, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. wink

    wink strangers like me Gold VIP Emerald

    looking at the new update thread, chilling, killing, relaxing all cool playing bball outside of school
    I thought this over and the revised protocol, and I really don't like it in its current state.

    Pretend I'm a new but soon to be notorious RDMer named "Biblical Micspammer". Say I kill three people intentionally in one round. 3 slays bada bing bada boom.

    Now pretend I'm a honest guy trying to make some shekels for a living named "bikinibottom super band conductor". I accidentally misclick round one on a homies head, serve the slay. I goomba stomp a homie on accident round 3, two slays, already tied the guy intentionally causing a problem. I don't like the moderator on and rdm someone round 6, 3 slays.

    This change makes it so that the homies actually causing a ruckus get less slays total (3 compared to 6) than a player making a few mistakes, who this change was trying to original compensate for in the first place after all and give them leniency.

    If you truly believe that not banning for 3 rdms is the way, I'd make it simple for the players and your staff to comprehend:

    1st offense: 1 autoslay
    2nd offense: 1 autoslay
    3rd offense: 1 autoslay
    4th: ban.

    Simple. Might be lenient as hell, but that's what it is otherwise to the people actually causing an issue.
     
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  2. Noccam :^)

    Noccam :^) Regular Member

    I'm confused, whats your problem with the current rules?
     
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  3. Fiz

    Fiz Local Soda Can VIP

    his problem is that if you rdm 3 people in one round you only serve 3 slays. but if you accidently do it over the course of round 1 3 and 6 you get 6 slays in total.
     
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  4. Pacifist

    Pacifist Re-imagining the Unimaginable Lead Admin VIP Bronze

    I have never in all my time on SGM (which is 1,276 more hours than every single person who has commented in this thread up until now combined) accidentally RDMed three times in a single map. If you honestly can't look back and say "wow maybe I need to play a bit more carefully" than I honestly can't feel bad if you get slain up to six times. The more likely answer is that the person is RDMing on purpose or they are playing recklessly. The way we have changed it has made it practically impossible to get six slays added to you at once, but you can still get six slays cumulatively if you are playing like an idiot.

    We still need to have some escalation, and I feel this suggestion would be far too lenient. The Mass RDM change was actually done so that we could be harsher on people who commit more Mass RDM over time. The side effect was that to be able to stack Mass RDM we had to make the third offense three slay. It was a bit of leniency for those who accidentally killed three people, but there still needs to be a bit of punishment there. If you kill three people in a round you get three slays. The system is already pretty much setup to be like you described it, the only time it isn't is if the person serves their punishment AND THEN continues to RDM. Which, obviously, we want to cut down on.
     
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  5. DocFox

    DocFox The Best Is Yet To Come VIP Silver Emerald

    Yeah, I don't think they should apply the old protocol to the new slay system. One slay for first, another for second, and one more for third. Then the fourth gets you a 24 hour ban.

    Then for 4 in one round, it's a 5 day ban for mass RDM.
     
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  6. Poon Tsar Shrimp

    Poon Tsar Shrimp Best Member VIP Bronze

    We used to slay for each RDM then ban just like you described. It seems like over time, the staff team has forgotten the rules and just became complacent with how they use them to torture and punish regular players.

    Think of it as a modernized sheep slaughterhouse. We are the lines of sheep waiting to be slaughtered and the staff team is making less revenue from the decreasing amount of sheep showing up in 2019. In order to circumvent this, the staff team has found new methods to slaughter sheep. They can now slaughter the same sheep 3 times in one day. But what's strange about this is that now a sheep returning for day 2 must now wait another day to be slaughtered for a third time.

    It's just not fair
     
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  7. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    I brought up the exact same points to pacifist before he made the thread, with the exact same protocol suggestion. I don't have much more to add, just letting you know that the staff team did consider your points before making a decision.

    @Joe Burrow I don't understand your analogy. The rules have changed a bit over time, but they aren't there just to torture players
     
  8. Poon Tsar Shrimp

    Poon Tsar Shrimp Best Member VIP Bronze

    ?? Rules might have other uses here, but the main purpose of them is to punish people.

    I'll give you another analogy. The date is April 15, 1989. All the players have gathered on the servers to have some fun. The Peoples Party of SGM has decided that they will amass 100 mods right outside of Tienanmen sq- i mean West 1. The players dislike the new rule changes and how the People's Party of SGM runs itself.

    You know what happens next.
     
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  9. wink

    wink strangers like me Gold VIP Emerald

    What was the point of changing the protocol in the first place then to allow for leniency as you said here

    Unless you were being super specific towards the example and not thinking about situations of three accidental rdms of two maps, I don’t get why this change was made then. I really don’t see the benefit of having a one player slain for the sum duration of a map whilst another having only half a map sun duration using the same protocol punishments.
    What problem is being solved here by modifying the third punishment to slays instead of a ban with a sol then? Sounds like the scenario for a true and honest rdmed x3 is rare enough where discretion could of been used/asked for to modify the protocol rather that outright change that’s either far too lenient or far too harsh depending on how destructive of a round you have.
     
  10. Temar

    Temar VIP

    I'm not going to go in specifics my self, but i do agree with what @wink is saying
    it should be revised to punish Mass RDMer who are literally just that, and lesser punishment for those who's intention isn't to mass rdm but just arn't as careful as they should be and may on average rdm once per 3 rounds which still ends in Mass RDM ban (and apparently alot more slays served)
    I'm sure there is many regular players who ended up with mass RDM bans from simply trying to play and not RDM (not me ofc my ban record is clean)
     
  11. Pacifist

    Pacifist Re-imagining the Unimaginable Lead Admin VIP Bronze

    The problem being solved here is that we now have stacking for Mass RDM bans. That is the biggest reason for the change. The leniency came as a result of needing to standardize what was considered Mass RDM. We figured it would be far too confusing to have a Mass RDM x3 1st offense alongside Mass RDM 4+ 1st offense. Therefore we converted Mass RDM x3 into slays because most of the time getting three or less RDMs in one session is due to either accidents or a reckless play style. It is more lenient if you accidentally kill three people at once, or in a short period (now with the change being made yesterday it isn't even round based anymore) and is a bit harsher on those who RDM over a longer period of time. Though the thing that we don't agree on is that most people are not going to RDM more than once or twice if they are serious players who take the game seriously. I know that because I seem to manage just fine, and I know a lot of regulars that have no problems with keeping in line with the rules.

    We are making mountains out of mole hills. If it can be demonstrated through repeated problems that this system is not working than we will revise it. I'll get back with the staff team in a months time to see if there are any issues.
     
  12. wink

    wink strangers like me Gold VIP Emerald

    could of just converted it all to a “mass rdm ban” and cut it at three. Also could of had your admins step up in terms of having their mods report players they ban for mass rdm who might have a colorful history and not changed anything.

    I’m repeating myself at this point, but this slay progression chart is just wacko mode to me:
    RDM intentionally three times one round, three slays total. Ok I guess

    RDM my friend nilz with a pig one round, come back from slay and accidentally throw a frag for two counts of rdms. Four slays total, eh.

    RDM two people one round with an accidental incen that ended up icing a homie, misunderstand a common sense scenario after those two slays are served five slays total. wtf

    Crowbar my homie nilz round one, come back and accidentally kill someone for dropping an incendiary grenade two rounds later, come back again after that and goomba stomp a mean guy who wouldn’t forgive. Six slays total, not like this.

    Also, that whole mess in the spoiler gets more and more “wtf is this progression” when you take in account the turn around time on a report for a crowded server.

    You might not agree and it sounds like you are just going to take this thread as a “thinly veiled attack on the rule change” and take it as the grain of salt my opinion is worth but it’s gonna suck seeing someone ruin a round for three people (roughly 10 percent of a populated server, roughly 18 percent of a lesser populated one) and get a more lenient sentence then a player whose gone accidental mode.

    Give leniency to my friend nilz the accidental rdmer and not to my enemy nilz the rdm round enthusiast
     
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  13. Pacifist

    Pacifist Re-imagining the Unimaginable Lead Admin VIP Bronze

    I do not take this as a thinly veiled attack on the rule change. I take this thread as a real discussion about how best to handle slays. Again, I think that simplying this further could cause too much leniency. We can agree to disagree, but I'll keep an eye on this. If the way we are doing it now is so fundamentally wrong that people are getting dicked over by it, we'll look at this change first and foremost. Trial and error is important to learning I believe.
     
  14. Noccam :^)

    Noccam :^) Regular Member

    I’m confused. Of course you always have the right to complain whenever you want about whatever you want, but if you have a problem with this rule, why did you not comment on the “modifying mass rdm” thread with your complaint before the rule got changed?
     
  15. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    I just want to point out that the 1 slay per rdm committed in one round has been going on for months. I don't know if it was officially announced or not. The major difference with the rule change is counting every round until the reports are handled as one round, and that the rdm count can now go to 3 instead of 2 before a ban, making the differences in progression more glaring. While I agree with you Wink on a lot of points, the big plus I get from this is handling reports from before staff was on, since the max slays someone will get for rdm without staff on will be 3 instead of 6, meaning people won't come on and have to serve an entire map of slays before being able to play because the staff wasn't on last time they played.
     
  16. Solar

    Solar El Dorado VIP

    I’ll have to side with @wink on this one mostly due to the weird slay progression and the point on how this punishes misplays more than actual RDMers.

    Wasn’t a real fan of the previous implementation of the slay progression anyway (2 slays for 2nd punishment if not yet implemented but 3 total slays if you RDM in separate round), it was weird and inconsistent.

    If you’re not up for leniency, why not just make it consistent so that total slays will be 3 slays for 2nd RDM and 6 slays for 3rd RDM regardless of what round it happened?

    But hey what do I know, I haven’t staffed for almost 2 years now :ROFLMAO:
     
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  17. wink

    wink strangers like me Gold VIP Emerald

    it truly is a dark day
     
  18. Solar

    Solar El Dorado VIP

    Then let’s not camp outside
     
  19. Humancowcakes ❀

    Humancowcakes ❀ tis the season Moderator MVP

    This shit's stupid (not Wink's idea, the new way of handling rdm)
     
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