Unreported Damage

It has been a year since a similar thread was posted about this topic, however it was constructed in such a way that it was more of an angry rant than an actual suggestion. So I decided I wanted to see what everyone thought about this.

I am suggesting that unreported damage be non mandatory. The following conditions would apply:
1. If the damage is reported (by any person) it must be handled
2. If someone inquires about the damage it must be reported and handled
3. If the player has damaged more than one person it must be reported and handled

The reason I am suggesting this is because of a few things:
1. Having it be mandatory can put stress on a staff member in a situation where they already have a bunch of reports that must be handled.
2. It is very easy to miss unreported damage in the logs
3. It promotes a hostile environment where the staff members are always looking for reasons to slay people, and in the end gives our serves a bad reputation.
4. They can be rather predatory if a few rounds go by before the damage is reported
5. It doesn't really help the server all that much, as the people who often fall victim to this are newer players who don't really understand the rules all that much.
6. It is hard for a staff member to remain unbiased when they are the ones persuing the damage. Naturally they are going to be more biased towards the victim of the report, as they are personally acting on their behalf.

Now, there are some reasons I can think of that people would be against this, and I will break them all down:
1. Unreported damage is already pretty lax on the servers, and isn't forced on moderators all that much
R. I would disagree with this. Even if we aren't crazy about getting every piece of unreported, staff members can still get into trouble if they miss major cases of rdm. Not to mention trial moderators are often judged on if they are able to find and exicute unreported damage.

2. Accidental RDM is still RDM
R. This one is pretty valid. RDM should not be overlooked, however it seems like you start to nitpick when you specifically pick minor pieces of damage that at the end of the day no one seems to care about.

3. Normal players do not have access to logs, and therefore may not have realized that they were damaged.
R. Again, this is a rather fair point, however it assumes too much. When a player is damaged randomly, how do we know that the player just didn't care that he was damaged?

4. There is already a 20 damage threshold, so this is basically negated.
R. Again, fair enough. However, this doesn't address the main reasons I listed above of why I see it as bad.


Basically, the practice of Unreported damage is quite predatory. It forces moderators to personally punish players for RDM, rather than naturally handling a dispute between two players. It is a system that on paper sounds good, but in practice often times discriminates against good players who have no intention of rdming. That is just my opinion. Please vote on the poll.

Spoiler: TL;DR

Because I know frick wont read this shit

Make unreported damage non-mandatory, under the following conditions:
1. If the damage is reported (by any person) it must be handled
2. If someone inquires about the damage it must be reported and handled
3. If the player has damaged more than one person it must be reported and handled

Please read the full thread before giving feedback. I put a lot of time trying to figure out the best way to frame this all

 

+1

 

100% agree, in my short time as a Tmod, i always felt like a total fucking shitlord digging through logs for unreported damage, especially when both people were telling me its gucci.

 

I'm not on board for this personally for a few reasons.

1) This is favorable to older players who already know how to report their own damage, versus newer players that may not know how to utilize end-round logs to find the damage themselves, or contact staff properly to have the damage reported for them.

2) This would mean players that do things such as crowbar fights, RDMing friends, etc, would go unreported. We report these instances because they're playing the gamemode in a way that is non-beneficial to their team. So we have disallowed these instances of RDM- but they're only reported when a staff member reports unreported damage.

3) As you mentioned, this has already lax'd out overtime. In fact, in a recent discussion I've already mentioned to the whole staff team that we shouldn't be so anal about it and it shouldn't be such a large focus of trial training, and still stand by this. As far as the pressure when other reports are coming in- this shouldn't be something that is happening, and if it is, admins need to communicate to their mods that they need to not stress out over unreported damage when there is a high influx of reports given our recent discussions. Mods arn't going to get a valid report over missing unreported damage. It's something they should be looking for when they have time too.

4) If unreported damage is optional, when a mod does decide to enforce unreported damage- it essentially makes them look like an asshole rather than them just doing their job- since it is no longer their job. This will just lead to further inconsistent moderation.

 

1; git gud
2; i can see that
3; fair enough
4; true as fuck, they will look like an ultra asreface

 

1. Yet no system is being put into place to better help these newer players find and report damage on their own.
2. But would that really be such a bad thing? The only people really getting hurt in these instances are two close friends. Not to mention, most staff members would still report this as it is a considerable ammount of damage.
3. By supporting unreported damage you are supporting an anal staff team. If it is already so lax, what is stopping us from going all the way? We already hardly enforce it, and no moderator enjoys being forced to comb through the logs (especially on a calm server where they would much rather be playing and having fun with the people on the servers) and pick out every bit of damage that wasn't reported. It is really predatory, and super anal.
4. This already happens and is happening right now. People not being forced to do unreported damage has caused an environment where any moderator who does every piece of unreported damage is called out by you for being too anal. However, when the coin is flipped and they do exactly what you want you go against it.

Everything you just said is a serious contradiction to how you want this dealt with. Your arguments are as follows:
1. "I've already mentioned to the whole staff team that we shouldn't be so anal about it and it shouldn't be such a large focus of trial training, and still stand by this."
2. "So we have disallowed these instances of RDM- but they're only reported when a staff member reports unreported damage."

Unreported damage is not beneficial to the server in any real or meaningful way, and if you honestly felt like it was, you wouldn't be talking about how you want the staff team to be less anal.

 

Until you can code something that pops up at the end of the round, showing a person when damage was dealt to them, I have to -1.

Otherwise, I think that this is something that could be left up to the players

 

I think that under these specific conditions, this could work well.

This is a good point as well. But I feel that as long as moderators were to look out for these kinds of situations (and report them as they see fit, not just report them simply because it's unreported damage and that's what they're supposed to do), Pacifist's idea would do more good than harm here. Honestly it's just giving mods more discretion in the cases of unreported. And as it stands mods have discretion to forgive accidental RDM, so I don't see how this is much different.

 

1. We do have a global notice function for staff that tells them how to use the !report function that all staff have access to that's pretty under utilized.

2. It depends how you want the server run. We historically in the history of the server have decided that we wanted to have a rule-set the governed how the true nature of the gamemode is supposed to be player, which doesn't allow players to RDM people for fun. This rule would effectively change that. I emphasize here that there have been recent dialog for staff to be less anal about it, and don't stress out if you can't get to it immediately- but at the same time the moderator's job is to ensure that the server is in order. Yes- I would be pretty annoyed if someone RDM'd the detective and now my team doesn't have a detective because he agree'd to crowbar fight his buddy and lost.

3. I'm supporting consistency between staff members. Staff members are not required to comb through the logs in the sake of playing or finishing other reports already. If this is occurring- let me know and I'll have a talk with their admin and how they're prioritizing their mods focus. This was never the intention.

4. What I'm saying here is that the responsibility lies in the upper-administration that has the protocol in place. Maybe there's some confusion in what I'm saying. What I mean by being lax is that there shouldn't be an pressure on the moderator to find unreported damage when they have a huge influx of reports- and they deff shouldn't be sacrificing their playtime just to go search the logs for unreported damage. At the same time, we do still expect them, when they have time, to take a quick look through the logs to see if there's any instances that don't really make sense. But at the same time- don't report every single line that turns up red in the logs. It's pretty easy to see why the kill happened 90% of the time and no report is even necessary.

I'm not sure what to say about you thinking I'm not being honest here. This is truly how I feel about the matter. I believe unreported damage can absolutely be mitigated in a way that isn't damaging to the large atmosphere of the server.

 

We're all just here to have fun and play GMod.

If the victim feels like the damage was unnecessary and it ruined their fun by causing their death, then they can report the offender who did the initial damage. (I'm talking like 30-40+ damage here, or when it causes a chain of rdm)

I 100% agree with Paci that unreported damage is not beneficial and, in fact, I think that it is harmful. If we slay someone for doing a bit of damage and NOT ruining anyone's fun, I think that would be definitely negative, and borderline toxic.

When I was a mod, I felt really bad slaying someone on the next round because they were having a bit of banter with one of their friends or something around those lines.

There is a reason 95% of the time why the damage is unreported -- because the victim gave forgiveness, or didn't want the offender to be punished. The other 5% is just people who don't know how to report someone that didn't kill them or don't know the ttt_print_damagelogs command.

TLDR: Mandatory Unreported damage negatively impacts the server and should be removed. Have some fun bois

 

The damage threshold is useless anyways, the hk456 or w.e it's called does 34 dmg. So 1 accidental shot and you've officially RDM'd. I think the main reason I get slayed is due to mods hunting for this damage. I don't think people are giving new players enough credit. Not all new players are inept, most people know how to contact an admin, and if they don't, they know how to complain in the chat which is also effective.

+1

EDIT: I'm not suggesting they just ignore unreported damage. Certainly keep a watch on it, and if there's repeated offenses then question it. But the once in awhile accidental shot resulting in a slay is silly imo.

 

I don't know ,I have a lot of initial thoughts on this. And im not quite sure how mandatory staff reporting unreported damage is at the current time.
I've always been under the impression its up to how an admin would like to their mods to staff.
But I've always seen reporting unreported damage as hey what happened or to stop people from continuous memeing and trolling.
Not every player is gonna speak up when they see an afk get rdmed or see an obvious kill on sus between new players.


To me removing a mods right? to question possible rdm or to ask about what happened in a weird scenario in the logs, sets a lower standard imo.
To be honest I dont really understand the point of this suggestion the more I think about.
I can understand not every single piece that looks like rdm getting asked about. But i strongly feel staff should be trying to uphold rules of the server.
And inquiring about possible issues whether it be afk players, ignorant new players or friends just messing around.

I guess this really comes down to how mandatory are we talking.
But ive always felt if staff are ignoring obvious rdm or being lazy with said questionable scenarios they are not doing what they applied for.

 

I've been slain for unreported damage as det when I heal the person after and they say it's all good

 

I believe that in many instances moderators would still be looking out for instances like this. I mean, the damage is still there for the future. If the detective goes around and damages people every round, the moderator is still free to report them for it, and many of them would. I think this is more of just a mistrust that our own moderators would handle the situation well.

I am under the assumption that we should be training our moderators to more accurately be able to tell when someone is trying to gain our system or be trollish... Rather than force them to report any and all possible rdms.

I agree with this completely. Moderators shouldn't be ignoring obvious trolling, but at the same time they shouldn't be going out of their way to hunt down and report instances that have little effect on the minds of the victim.

I think better training, and more trust in the people who moderate the servers should be pushed for instead of this.

 

Okay
Firstly when it comes to trial the whole point of Tphase(imo ofc) is to learn the logs, and get comfortable reading and using them.
Once they excel there they will have a better judgement of what to inquire about and maybe get a bit more info by reporting.
This just comes with time staffing as most things.
If mods are pushing trials to do unreported, thats kind of on the admins to enforce with moderators on what to help and teach trials.


Secondly I feel removing any type of standard for unreported will only lower standards as a whole.
When people are given the option to be a bit more lazy/lax(lack of a better word) and less initiative, thats exactly what happens.
This is why the servers only entrust the rank Admins with admin discretion.

 

1. Necessarily there is a report function but on top of that staff members and anyone else really could easily tell the player how to print damage logs. You kinda are the system as you're the staff team and should be helping newer players.
2. Yeah I'd say that's a bad thing. Crowbar fights and RDM'ing friends can lead to RDM trains which ultimately is a loss in karma for any player involved and leads to karma bans. Also you take away from the game mode at it's core.
3. Really? Forced to comb the logs? As a moderator you sign up to do those things. You sign up to uphold the rules of the servers. You already have damage thresh holds and the ability to forgive accidental RDM's, what more do you really need?
And unless you get every mod on the staff team to come here and say they feel that way, I'm gonna take it as a hasty generalization and a moot point. Just because you feel a certain way it doesn't mean everyone else does.
4. But what's wrong with that? The only people who get anal about that is anybody who doesn't play here very often (in my experience anyway). If mods are staffing a certain way it's because that

I don't actually believe any moderator practices this as you have the thresh hold and forgiveness to accidental RDM. You, as the admin, tell them the guidelines of what to watch for as you should know.
And I highly doubt you personally are training your own moderators to do this because you certainly do feel this way and you know not all RDM is mandatory for reporting. So this makes no sense to me.
At this point in your argument I'd lean a little more to the idea that you're gearing yourself more towards laziness more than anything else.
What you're asking for would let people off the hook more than anything else and lead more to trolling than a server that is playing the game for well, the game.
It feels and seems like with these changes that you want that you would be lowering the standard of the staff team.

 

You honestly believe that me of all people are pushing for laziness? All I am saying is that I want to see unreported damage stop being mandatory because it is being used to the detriment of the server. No one enjoys being slain because a moderator or an admin has gone out of their way to comb the logs looking for any and all situations where there might be rdm. Does that mean I want to see all moderators just give up and say "oh well, I don't have to so I wont"? No of course I don't want that, and if a moderator was doing something like that they shouldn't be a moderator because they clearly aren't able to uphold the rules. However, the rules are framed in such a way that newer players and older players are constantly being targetted by the system for acts that otherwise would have just been one off situations.

We may disagree on whether or not crowbar fighting is something that we should allow, but at the end of the day we are targetting players who don't have any negative intentions, and you wonder why so many people think that the staff team is a bunch of nazis. I signed up to uphold the rules, not to be a dick and slay everyone.

 

Honestly, I don't mind unreported damage. I'm cool with it.

No one enjoys being slain, period. I don't think the evil staff members are distracting themselves from real issues by reporting this though, they're just doing their job. Looking through the damage log and reporting people with two clicks is not time consuming, nor is it going out of their way. It's one of their responsibilities, so describing it like this isn't very impartial.

You are targeting people who have RDM'd, intentions aside. Mods aren't allowed to judge reports off of intentions. I could frag four innocents trying to kill a traitor without warning, and even though my intentions were anything but negative, I'd still get a ban. Obviously that's a little different from dicking around with your friend or whacking an afk with a crowbar, but intentions aren't really relevant here.

As for the nazis comment...I judge staff members when they do annoying things like refusing to unban 1st time RDM & Leave bans, or when they gag people for sneezing / burping into their mic once. This is because they have their own discretion. They don't have to keep the ban, and they don't have to be incredibly strict with what could be mic spam, so when they choose to be harsh, that's when I view it negatively. Simply reporting occasional unreported damage that's past 20 isn't a big deal to me, because that's their job.

My views on this have definitely changed over time and the conclusion I have is that unreported damage is worth it. People who know me know that I'll troll and occasionally RDM friends, but I'm also always prepared to serve a slay or whatever because of that. SGM has definitely drifted from what it was meant to represent - Serious TTT - and removing unreported damage would be a massive step away as well. What's the point in advertising ourselves as a serious server when we allow crowbar fights between friends?

props for actually making the suggestion, and I can see that more people will probably want it removed anyway, but it's gonna be a no from me dog.