Completed Report against Night

Discussion in 'TTT Staff/Player Reports' started by Juice Juice™, Apr 7, 2021.

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  1. Name of Staff/Player:
    Night
    Steam ID of Staff/Player:

    Your Steam ID:

    Which Server:
    East 1
    Which Map:
    Forgot
    Which Round:
    Forgot
    Time of Occurence:
    Forgot
    Reason For Report:
    I tried to resolve this over PMs, but Night ignored me. I don't know what happened to Staff groups, and I didn't want to just reach out to rando-admins about someone else's moderator.

    Basically, YoImtrash threw a barrel at me. It did 25 damage. Vel witnessed this. I killed vel for GBA. Night told me it wasn't GBA, and told me an admin said it wasn't GBA. I made a question about this, and was told that, in fact, it was GBA. And even there, he claims it wasn't for my case.​
    Evidence And/Or Witnesses:

     
  2. Pierogi

    Pierogi Special Properations Administrator Elite

  3. Night

    Night 8:00PM Moderator VIP Silver

    Just saying I've seen this and will respond when given the time.
     
  4. Titan

    Titan SGM's official music nerd Administrator VIP Bronze

    Ditto. I'll wait for Night to present his stuff proper, even though he already somewhat did that in the Q&A.
     
  5. Cole

    Cole Trial Moderator Legendary

    I’m pretty sure Night was double checking my work. If this involves me. It’s mainly a mistake I might have made. I will keep this report in mind and learn from it if I had made a mistake here.

    This was I’m Assuming on Life the Roof
     
  6. Night

    Night 8:00PM Moderator VIP Silver

    Alright, so where do we begin.



    Yesterday, April 7th on Life The Roof on the first round, you were reported by veL.

    [​IMG]

    Here, we can see that your initial response for this report was "Says the prop-thrower and his buddy for 25 damage." I went to the Deathscenee once before slaying you for the following reason of "veL literally did nothing they were just acting like veL - RDM"

    [​IMG]

    Done and over right? No, because then after you claim GBA.

    [​IMG]

    You then go into admin chat again after I had not seen the message you had initially sent considering my concentration was located at the Damagelog manager, there were 3 other reports after your report which I was doing. Another reason why I didn't see your message was that your message was only fully visible for a split second, once it was pushed out of the unreadable messages in the chatbox.

    After that had happened, I went into a staff channel and asked the following,

    "little scenario, let's just say player a is just watching a prop fight, player b is the one throwing the props, player c then kills player a for GBA who had mistaken player a for throwing props, however, it was actually player b [5:51 PM PST]"

    Spitefulvenom after I had said that says that it is not GBA, and considering he was an admin and the first to respond, I kept the slay.

    [​IMG]

    After about 30 minutes or so, I was pinged and notified of this thread, https://www.seriousgmod.com/threads...t-you-cant-gba-off-of-barrel-kills-why.57786/, where you questioned if Prop Kills/Damage can be considered as GBA. Still not realizing the fact that you were actually damaged and only relied on the logs, I responded with the following response.

    [​IMG]

    After all of that had passed, you had started a conversation with me via the forums at 7:26 PM PST, I got around to seeing at around 8:30 my time, and was going to respond tomorrow, which I did not.




    I'd like to bring up two mistakes that I have made and noticed for handling this report.

    1. You were damaged in the death scene of the report, however not in the logs, failure to acknowledge this may have cause miscommunication with the staff team. (The miscommunication here lies in the fact that I had failed to realize you getting damaged, leading to a possible wrong answer of whether it was GBA or not.)
    2. Me failing to respond to your private message via the forums was a mistake, I had read your pm but had forgotten it (this is a result of a genuine result of me not having the best memory.)
    3. Your response to the report could have actually been you calling GBA, but I had not realized it.


    So let's conclude this report against me, Cole had given the initial conclusion of "trash was the one who threw the prop." I acted off of the conclusion and reviewed whether veL was the one who was throwing the prop, I concluded that veL did nothing in this incase, so I slayed you for that. I failed to realize that you were damaged in the report, and asked the staff channel the wrong thing, which led to Spiteful saying that it is RDM. I kept the slay and you went onto the forums to ask a question, I state my case, and a small debate is made which was concluded by Pacifist. You start a conversation on the forums about your slay which I had not responded to.

    I would like to apologize for the inconvenience that you have gone through leading up to this report, and this mistake will not happen again.

    Considering that I've pretty much had summarized everything that had happened in the report, I'll let @Titan deal with the rest and respond to questions that'll be brought up.
     
  7. iizzy

    iizzy Pastel Pink Punk Moderator VIP

  8. Titan

    Titan SGM's official music nerd Administrator VIP Bronze

    Okayy,

    So this is going to be a learning experience. Going through the evidence presented here, I think that while you deserve a slay, the report was still mishandled.

    I'm just going to cover the in-game report first: While your report response was unclear, it seems that you are suggesting that you knew for certain either that 1) veL through the prop at you or 2) 100% witnessed someone else throwing the prop at you. In other words, it seems like you were suggesting a common sense GBA kill.

    First, let's look at the criteria for a valid GBA kill:


    There's very important key wording in there: "if they are found to be witnessing or able to witness another player commit a traitorous act."

    Since you did not see who threw the prop at you, nor were you able to see who directly witnessed the throwing of the prop, this GBA criteria was not met.


    Now, there is an arguement to be had that it's common sense, because no matter where the prop could have come from, veL probably would have seen or, or at least been able to see it. This is common sense, so let's have a refresher there:


    The key wording here is "with 100% certainty prove that a player is a traitor, or that they have committed a traitorous act."

    While it may be likely that veL was able to witness in a 360° view the prop throw, you can not say for 100% certain. There are many corners, many nooks and crannies, entrances and exits, and more in that part of life the roof. (not to mention a t-room.) What if someone had thrown the prop around a corner? What if they simply threw the prop from a place that veL was not able to see at the time that the prop was thrown?

    It may seem like nitpicking to throw out these scenarios given it's clearly not what happened in hindsight. But there's a reason I included the examples in the spoiler, and there is a reason that they are so specific. They are written that way so that in these scenarios, you, without a single possible doubt, know for a fact that a player committed a traitorous act.

    This, combined with the fact that you had your back entirely turned, and took a second or so to spin around and actually look around, means that this common sense criteria was not met.

    There's an additional third, smaller caveat, which is even if you were able to prove with 100% certainty that veL did indeed witness a t-act, you are leaving out a very important part of the GBA criteria which is "as long as the situation gives them a reasonable opportunity to react." What if, for example, PrimeHD threw the prop and immediately dipped around the corner? Or perhaps if an unknown third party threw the prop and teleported away? Sure, veL may have witnessed the kill, but they also would not have had reasonable opportunity to react before they would be teleported away/behind a wall. Therefore, the criteria for GBA would once again not be met.

    Due to the fact that neither important criteria was met, the report was a valid report, and thus you should have been slain. And you were. But this is not the path that Night took.



    Onto the second part, Night's handling of the report:

    Looking at your initial report response, while an albeit confusing response, I think that it's reasonable that your response covers the base of GBA, seemingly insinuating that you knew that either vel witnessed the prop throw, or was the thrower himself. This is the first error that Night committed, and Night wrote this himself:


    This misunderstanding of the initial response bled into Night's question to the admins. While this didn't really affect the report conclusion, it's still notable. Spiteful answered a different question than what the scenario was. Night also mentioned this in his response here:

    Tying into the last point, Night also admittedly missed the fact that you were indeed damaged by the prop. Sometimes prop damage doesn't show up in logs, but you can see in the death scene you took enough damage to bring your health down from healthy to wounded. This also didn't really affect the report conclusion, but also worth noting.

    The final thing Night admittedly could've handled better was the conversation you started in the forums. While sure, the staff is supposed to be receptive, nobody in the world can say they've never forgotten about something. I know I can be particularly bad about forgetting to respond to people, and especially given the fact that the convo was in an unusual medium (forum conversation), I don't really blame Night all that much here.


    I've reached out to Night and had a bit of a discussion to advise him to among other things 1) ensure that he gets a clarification on report wordings if they are confusing, and 2) to slow down the deathscenes so that important information (such as prop damage) is not missed. That said, while you did deserve a slay, this leaves the report valid.

    If you've got any questions or concerns regarding this report or any of my moderators, feel free to reach out to me on discord, Titan#4581. Cheers.
     
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