Regarding 'Ghosting'

Discussion in 'TTT Discussion' started by Sabre Shark, Apr 27, 2018.

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Do you agree with my sentiments?

  1. Agree completely

    20.8%
  2. Agree in part

    12.5%
  3. Disagree in part

    41.7%
  4. Disagree completely

    8.3%
  5. No idea / don't care

    16.7%
  1. Sabre Shark

    Sabre Shark New Member

    Hello,
    I am a long time player who was recently banned for ghosting (appeal for info).
    I agree as it is worded in the rules it was warranted, though I fundamentally disagree with the wording used to define 'ghosting';

    "Ghosting is the act of providing round-related game-influencing information to a player, or players, through means of third party communications. Examples of third party communications would be steam chat, !p (in game), Skype, or any other form of communication that is not the public chat in-game."

    In summary delivering any information through any other means than in-game voice and public text chat dead, spectating or alive is currently ghosting.

    My first issue; its called ghosting, in my opinion for a reason.. you have to be a ghost (not alive)

    Secondly, how impossible it is to not say anything game related while playing with friends without being super aware. As it stands saying something as simple as 'Nice shotgun Pete' on discord could very easily be ghosting as that is in-game information. Another example? 'Did I just see you die?' 'Im out of ammo' 'I need health' 'Watch for Jim, he's sus' 'Oh, Jim just went in T room' 'Sniper!' - literally anything.

    Thirdly and following on from my second issue, how often is it actually enforced to that degree, and what staff member can honestly say they have never or even rarely say any in game information while alive through 3rd party means.

    With this post I would hope to create a discussion on what ghosting should be ruled as unanimously, should it really include any information when you're alive and dead/spec? Just when you're dead/spec?

    My personal opinion is that;
    • Giving any information while you're dead/spec'ing is ghosting,
    • Issuing instructions/directions (e.g. instructing to kill a person on sight (kos) ) while alive should only be allowed through in-game methods, solely to accommodate for logs and accountability
    • All information should be allowed while alive through third party while alive
    Edit - Would adding a /whisper command be beneficial as part of a solution?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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  2. Xproplayer

    Xproplayer VIP Silver

    I think the official rule is "influencing the game" which could mean anything. If i PM any alive player they have to take a fraction of a second to read it which influences it. I'd probably rather have it be a vague / open rule like that so that it can be discretion based. With that said let me look at the appeal

    After reviewing the appeal I agree that this does look silly and I can understand your perspective. However the situation here is that everyone is a terrorist and lets assume it was IRL they'd all have a "group" voice chat, no way to privately message someone. I would have to consider what you did as a punishable offense and I agree with the verdict.
     
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  3. Sabre Shark

    Sabre Shark New Member

    @Xproplayer If it was real life I could walk up to them and be like, hey, dude's a traitor. Or hey, change to radio channel 5.

    Since it is a game though, I have no means to whisper or communicate in a more discrete manner in-game other than !p.

    As for vague rules, I've personally never been a fan - I feel it leads to favoritism etc easily, what if rdm had vague rules, would get messy but that's just my 10 cents
     
  4. Xproplayer

    Xproplayer VIP Silver

    That would require being physically close together, which it sounds like you were across the map. And telling someone to change to another radio channel means the traitors or innos or anyone could also change.
     
  5. Sabre Shark

    Sabre Shark New Member

    I was in close proximity to them at different points, do you think a whisper function in game could be apart of a good solution? (/whisper is used in rp already)
     
  6. Xproplayer

    Xproplayer VIP Silver

    I'd support that
     
  7. Hyper ✿

    Hyper ✿ peace lata VIP Bronze

    I think he's referring more so to why it is ghosting if you are alive and you PM someone who is alive round-related information, Xpro. This is simply because there is no means of communicating on TTT other than the public text chat and voice chats.
    You may argue that the !p function is part of TTT, but it is an addon to the servers. The mundane TTT does not allow any type of private communication or communication to any specific group of people other than the whole server (with the exception of T's).

    The rules are based on vanilla TTT. This being said, if you discretely PM someone information, you are changing the round because if you only used in-game functions, the whole server would be aware also.
    The innocents are supposed to be at a disadvantage because the traitors are scarce as it is. (1-4 to be exact.) This is just one of the many they have. Staff members always have the liberty to ask for discretion if the offense was not malicious or heavily round-affecting as exemplified by your case, but the bottom line is that any round-related information that you privately give to other players while you are alive is ghosting.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  8. Daddy Nexxus

    Daddy Nexxus Toxi-Fessional VIP

    Using PM should be allowed while alive. Someone was banned for (while being a detective) PMing a proven inno where their health station was. Still consider it one of the fucking dumbest bans I've ever seen, and it was held up by administration.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  9. nikki

    nikki Dutch female gamer: cocky, rude/toxic. VIP Bronze

    public chat only, using 3rd party software or PMs to tell people the location of stuff gives you an advantage since not everyone can see it, what if i PM the detective you're KOSed and he kills you, it would be unfair since you wouldn't be able to see the KOS called on you. i would really prefer if this rule didn't change because i feel like a lot of regulars would just start PMing eachother locations/KOSes.

    i'm sure there are some more examples to be listed as to why this is a bad idea but i'm tired


    edit: i don't think people who don't know about this rule should be punished too hard, it shouldn't be a full on ghosting ban and just a warning (1st time you do it) because i can see why someone would think this isn't a big deal.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. neutral

    neutral Banned VIP

    Yeah, we don't have any intention of changing it at this time.


    Most of the time users get a warning if admin discretion can be reached or if there's no history of ghosting, even with history, bans like this are often at the very least reduced (like it was in this case).
     
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  11. Aquast

    Aquast lordy was here :barefoot: VIP Bronze

    tbh the rule should be reworded
    go and fucking read the ghosting rule
    (Giving away the role, location or status of another player to a living player while dead/spectating.)
    and you'll get the idea that its only ghosting when you're dead, because it specifically mentions "while dead/spectacing"
    in my opinion Sabre Shark's ban wasn't his fault but it was because of the bad wording in the rules
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  12. Niclas

    Niclas hióa

    Ghosting rule states: Ghosting is the act of providing round-related game-influencing information to a player, or players, through means of third party communications. Examples of third party communications would be steam chat, !p (in game), Skype, or any other form of communication that is not the public chat in-game.
    So in the essence of it, if you use a third party communication system to relay information, it is ghosting. At least that's what the message I'm getting from it.


    This includes (but not limited to):
    • Giving away the role, location or status of another player to a living player while dead/spectating.
    • Informing a living player that the last T/inno/D is AFK or how many of them are still alive while dead/spectating.
    • Informing a living player that you died before your body was found and IDed.
    • Giving the location of dropped or planted T/D weapons, C4, Tripwires, etc.
    It includes the basic principles of ghosting of what you are not allowed to do, but it isn't limited to these principles alone; which means that staff members are allowed to use their discretion on what is ghosting, and what is not. There is a reason this is an open rule, it allows staff members to discuss if the information that was given if it game-influencing or not.

    I think your ban was valid because it breaks the main rule of ghosting, you are using 3rd party communications to relay information that is not public to other players. Unless they change the rule now it is valid. The definition of 3rd party communications is basically a private conversation or that you are using a private system that only allows you and the others users of the system gathered in that "party" to communicate. Which of course is allowed, but you are not allowed to provide/give round-related game-influencing information to a player, or players, through means of third party communications. It could also have been done using any other 3rd party communication system; like steam/ts3/discord/skype, but you used an in-game mechanism to give information and that's why you probably think your situation is unjust/weird. But it is a 3rd party communication nonetheless.

    I could not be entirely right, but that is what I have gathered/figured from reading the ghosting rule.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  13. ink

    ink Genuine Happiness VIP Silver

    I do feel like Ghosting being lumped together with Hacking is worse than what Ghosting is most of the times. I know most mods gets discretion to warn for ghosting, and accept the appeals in most cases because ghosting can easily be accidental, subtle, and may not even influence the round much. However, the ghosting ban shouldn't be this long in the first place. The players who don't appeal the 28 day ban shouldn't be treated so harshly to begin with. It's easy to appeal, but is accidentally telling someone "hey you can use the health station next to you" really as bad as aimbot-ing the whole server down? Accepting the appeal is different, but ghosting shouldn't be a 28 day ban 1st offense.
     
  14. nayrsomar

    nayrsomar VIP

    Necro bumping this because of my recent interest in the ghosting rule.

    Today I learned that "ghosting" doesn't refer to ghosts exclusively. Rule should be changed to "whispering", or "private messaging" or some variant of that, to adequately describe what is claimed to be at the heart of the rule.

    You shouldn't say murder is a crime, then define murder to include drug possession.

    Similarly, you shouldn't say ghosting is bannable, then define "ghosts" to include "non ghosts"

    I understand that you could do that, but you shouldn't.
    It creates situations like these where ordinary players interpret the rule according to what appears to be a plain meaning, only to discover that the staff interprets it in a convoluted and contrary manner.

    As several people have posted here and in Sabre's original appeal:

    Ghosting is the act of providing round-related game-influencing information to a player, or players, through means of third party communications. Examples of third party communications would be steam chat, !p (in game), Skype, or any other form of communication that is not the public chat in-game.

    This includes (but not limited to):
    • Giving away the role, location or status of another player to a living player while dead/spectating.
    • Informing a living player that the last T/inno/D is AFK or how many of them are still alive while dead/spectating.
    • Informing a living player that you died before your body was found and IDed.
    • Giving the location of dropped or planted T/D weapons, C4, Tripwires, etc.
    Sure, the rule literally encompasses any form of private communication, whether the sender is dead or alive, but that literal reading is greatly undermined by the examples which follow and which exclusively describe situations where the sender is dead and the recipient is alive. Essentially, the staff have interpreted "dead" to include "alive", and it's fine that the staff wants private communications to be the focus of the rule, but then why not change the rule's name to reflect that otherwise unreasonable scope? Context is extremely important when it comes to language interpretation, and if you want players to follow rules, you'll first need for them to comprehend those rules. The context of this rule, and thus how this rule is interpreted, plainly describes dead players communicating with the living.

    Examples of literal text that is not, and should not be, understood literally:
    1. Right to bear arms
      • Nukes are literally arms . . . but we don't read this literally
    2. I couldn't eat another bite
      • This would literally mean it's impossible . . . which is not true
    3. Ghosting is the act of providing round-related game-influencing information to a player, or players, through means of third party communications
      • This would literally apply to any privately sent, influential info . . . but the term "ghosting" doesn't even begin to imply a living message sender, nor do the given examples

    The most reasonable thing that could be done would be to retitle that rule so that privately sending information, rather than "ghosting", is the focus. Again I suggest "Whispering" or "private messaging"

    Finally, if the policy is to treat innocent ghosting violations like this with leniency upon appeal, why not make the lower ban times the norm and give discretion to increase it based on severity of the ghosting violation? This would provide more proportionality to the ghosting violation committed.

    If long time players like @Aquast, @LordyHGM, @ink and myself smell something funky when it comes to this rule and how harshly it is handled without an appeal, how can you expect new players to avoid a ban they couldn't reasonably know was coming? Further, how can you expect those new players to know that they would be given leniency if only they appealed the issue. A new player is more likely to never return to this server when they receive a 4 week ban for, while being alive, !pm'ing a teammate, than that new player is to make an account on seriousgmod.com and appeal the issue.

    TL;DR:
    1. It's okay that staff want a flexible rule giving wide discretion for punishing/forgiving instances where players privately give away game influential info
    2. It's not okay to use a commonly understood term, give examples that fit only that commonly understood meaning, but later cite to the Extended Rules "not limited" language as some sort of catch all to squeeze alternative (and little known) definitions of "ghosting" into the rule
    Anything short of a clarification in the Extended Rules that ghosting (dead) applies to non-ghosts (alive) is unreasonable.


    If longevity is this server's goal, and I hope it is because I greatly enjoy it, then clear rules and proportional punishments need to be the mechanisms
     
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  15. DocFox

    DocFox The Best Is Yet To Come VIP Silver Emerald

    I just wanted to point out that ghosting doesn't always have to mean a dead player using information. Yes, in many FPS it can mean that, but it can also mean other things, like what is listed in our rules, in the gaming community. Take this definition here for example.

    The community has been here for almost 5 years and the rule is pretty well defined; it has been since 2014. Arguing semantics would be a legitimate argument if ghosting wasn't specifically defined in our rules. Since the definition is there, then semantics are a waste of time.

    If we want to argue current laws in real life, which we really never should, remember that SGM is a private community with its own rules just as with other states or companies that choose to have laws that have a narrower or wider allowance than national laws. Ignorance to state specific or company specific laws is no justification for breaking them.
     
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  16. ink

    ink Genuine Happiness VIP Silver

    What he was talking about is not ignorance to "don't tell your friend who the traitors are", but ignorance to the extent of which we consider ghosting a ban. The thing is, I've personally only seen 2-3 cases of the ghosting that's defined in the rules, and the vast majority of them are about little things and stuff. Mods can get discretion to not ban, but what he was saying was that mods shouldn't have to punish so severely and instead ask admins to extend what is actually extreme. Little things like "the player count is on tab" and surfing to someone's head when told to do so can really not be understood while reading:
    Arguing about a rule is well within what should be encouraged and talked about. We should never have a rule because "it's well established" or "the guys who made tbe community had it". We are more than empowered to change rules and no player should feel that their input isn't worth anything because their input is about an old rule.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Han

    Han       VIP

    I don't really think this is a vital edit, but it probably would be a nice and simple fix to just add an example of ghosting that is more related to Shark's ban. The rules already say "Giving the location of dropped or planted T/D weapons, C4, Tripwires, etc." which doesn't indicate that you have to be dead, but a little more clarity wouldn't hurt. It could just be rewording one of the current definitions to be "Exchanging information, even while both players are alive, such as the location of dropped or planted T/D weapons, C4, Tripwires, Health Stations, Traitor or Proven call-outs, etc."

    As for this actually being ghosting, I'd still want it to be punishable. It's not fair nor enjoyable to be in that situation as a traitor. I'm all for lesser punishment for first time offenders though, as this isn't traditionally seen as ghosting.
     
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