It wasn't a misphrase in the slightest. It doesn't sound nice, but it is exactly what happens: You make more of a fuss, you get noticed, and your chances of being banned for mass RDM shoot way, way up, even if your offenses are identical to someone who hasn't been banned. Even though it isn't malicious 95% of the time (And lets face it, we can all name moderators who would have done or did so, very maliciously, if we are willing to think about it for a second. No, there isn't evidence, at least to the public eye, but a good chunk of us are adults. We know it happens), it still happens, without anyone even really thinking about it. That is why some form of regulation should be put in place.
I dissagree compleatly with a set timeframe being put in place. No staff member should be itchy to swing the ban hammer but I will be the first to admit I feel worse giving a ban to someone who owns up to their rdm than someone who gives bullshit for every responce. This however does not change how a standard rdm is handled. Both players will get a slay and even the genuine player can and will get a ban depending on their offence. Players who blend in are likely to do just that blend in and avoid a ban, honest players are those who fuck up once per 4+ maps are not likely to be banned because the staff member has forgotten the offence entirely. To counter your comment about someones chances of reciving a ban shoot way up it is rare, in my experiance of being a staff member for a cumulitive of 9 months this has happened less than a dozen times personaly and each of these offences are players with a massive history of toxisity or someone who is comming from another community to just cause issues. Vet players even the most toxic of them often fly under the radar and at the end of the day this does not affect you or most of our other loyal community members. On the off chance that it does it has been mentioned before in this thread that you can bring bias to an admin+ or to the report section, something this suggestion fails to touch on is the .01% of players who this actually applies to. My prior statement still stands however, get noticed and you may not skate past the 2 map reset. I do not deny we have/had some shit staff in this reguard before but thanks to the community they are no longer or wont be for much longer a member of the staff team. At the end of the day too much has been put into this discussion. I feel it is pointless for 99.99% of players on the server.
But in your own words, memory is component. That shouldn't be the case. Outside of the bad apples, it isn't a matter of bias. A standard RDM is just that: A standard RDM, and it's the only factor I am considering here for this rule, because this rule is only meant to handle standard RDM. Memory is never a component of standard RDM, in any place but here.
I gotta ask, @TomCat™ , what's your dog in this fight? You're fighting for this particular point awfully fiercely, have you been on the receiving end of less than proper staff conduct in this manner? Or do you just feel really strongly about this point for no particular reason at all, because for the life of me I can't see it.
I have never been banned for anything but Karma, nor do many people on my friends list get bans like this (At least that I'm aware of), and a rule change like this would likely result with me getting a ban or two. This is just a glaring flaw in the server's rules, which is something I care about
If you want to argue the standard rdm a staff member is technically allowed to keep tack of every rdm from the moment they log onto the server to the time they log off, be it 10 minutes or 12 hours. Truthfully unless someone has an idedic memory this is not happening. I understand your point of concistancy which is one thing i have argued for since i was picked up in april but this is one of a very few times I dissagree. The ability to go back on offences that do not pop up in the rdm manager help out the rest of the server to have an enjoyable time. In my humble oppinion, if someone wants to be an ass go do it somewhere else where they are not wasting time and staff resourses of volenteers. So they are not killing the good moods of honest players who play and abide by the rules constantly.
A 'flaw' in the server rules that promotes leniency to a much higher degree than what you're suggesting. We honestly have no desire to INCREASE the amount in which we slay/ban people, and that is literally all this would achieve, is more active bans. It doesn't actually have any benefits other than quelling your strange obsession with consistency. That's not a good enough reason to do this, either.
I'm not entirely sure if I am reading this correctly, but the ability to go back and make your own personal judgement on a situation is exactly the opposite of what should be allowed. If somebody is that bad, get an admin's discretion. This rule makes sure there is more regulation, and gives you a more consistence resource. And, from a staffing position, imagine this: A tracker that logs the date, time, and server of every slay given on someone, that you can just click on their name and see their history. Not only would it help you identify clearly toxic individuals who might go from server to server RDMing, but it would let you immediately discern how long ago it happened, and give instant reference to if that slay should be expired or not.
I have argued my point fairly I believe and I have said my peace. This discussion has become a mindless argumemt so much to the point where I can barely comprehend what you are trying to put forth. My stance on this is I do not support a set in stone time frame of which Rdm's should be forgiven, especially one that includes a legitimate hour and minute counter as that is ridiculous and straining on our volunteers. If one is to be set in place, Make it 3 maps worth and add another tab to the rdm manager to allow staff to look back at 2 prior maps. This is my peace.
I was speaking about me, personally. I often make mistakes, sometimes at such a frequency I was surprised I wasn't banned. It would hardly be proper to complain about something like that, but it is an enforcement I expected. And, again, this would be a maximum number of rounds, maps, time, whatever, before a person is banned or double slain, not a minimum. While there are arguments for the sake of full consistency to make sure it is the minimum as well, I would vastly prefer it if moderators were still able to forgive or forget the slays, they have a universal standard for how long one could carry over. My obsession stems from a fair and universal application of the rules, with a compromise for the fun of the players. It is neither fair nor universal for identical crimes to be punished differently depending on the moderator, nor is it fun for people to always be punished more harshly for sincere mistakes. This is why a mandatory expiration for further punishment should be put in place, while maintaining the ability for a moderator to forgive those punishments prematurely. There simply isn't any reason to let staff carry a slay over for as long as they want. Any situation that might be helpful with is already covered by other rules.
The reason for it is, that's how we've decided to do things. YOU see no reason for it, but you're failing to see where that's irrelevant. Moderators are selected because we entrust them to adequately enforce the rules, with no personal biases involved. Barring any evidence for this being presented, your arguments to this point have to be considered moot. This particular inconsistency bears no real negative effects worthy of note, and the solutions provided, while simplistic in nature, would only add an unnecessary task to the staff team. Again, and this is the final time I'll say this, moderating isn't hard. That doesn't mean we need to make it needlessly harder. Should this ever become an actual problem, it would assuredly be changed. Until then, I've said my piece time and again. The sad part is, my mind is open to change, here, but my repeated requests for supporting evidence have been either ignored, or passed off as "I'm not gonna go digging". If you're not willing to do that digging, you clearly don't care as much about this as you let on.
I'm not going to go digging because there are over ten thousand reports and it would be implausible to find them when I don't even know what date it is I'm looking for. You keep speaking like it's impossible for this to happen without evidence, to which, I ask, why are you pretending to be so naive? Just because we don't have evidence for something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The real sad thing is that you are only willing to accept evidence of players directly impacted, and not the evidence in this very thread that prove they exist. You know full well the only way for a non-staff member to obtain this evidence is via a report filed on the forums, which requires a whole host of things to just be made. the least of which is they have to care enough about the issue for a report or appeal to be made. If you were willing to look pass your own, very clear bias, you would be able to admit this does happen, if only because two different staff members enforce this rule completely differently. If you think that has never happened, given the dozens of hours of staffing that can be done by different people in just one day, then you are just stupid, and I don't think that is the case. And, for about the twentieth time, this isn't an issue of bias (Certainly not conscious bias, if nothing else) as much as it is about human limitation, and the fact everyone takes this rule differently when enforcing it. That's not an acceptable behavior, not on this server. And to the addition 'task' this would create for the staff? For one thing, if it was coded into the RDM reports, it would be effortless. And making a manual note of it yourself is mere seconds, wouldn't even add up to ten minutes if you were staffing a full server for hours straight. It's a reference sheet, nothing more, one you are required to use only before banning or double slaying someone, which happens rarely enough as-is. For another, this level of organization could only help. I would like to see any staff member argue this would somehow hinder them, or not be a boon when moderating. I have given reasons, time and time again. You just aren't willing to accept or even argue against them, because you arbitrarily decided they aren't valid enough for discussion. You want proof? Ask any staff member willing to be honest with you or themselves. Or just stop being so narrow minded. You don't want this to be a thing because it's a non-issue, or too small of an issue to matter. That is arbitrary. That is subjective. And that is not why rules in this server are made.
I never stated this. Put down your torch, you've already burned plenty of strawmen during this discussion. My point in repeatedly insisting upon evidence has clearly been misconstrued, I'm asking for you to express situations in which this is a problem, not implying that things can't happen when there's no evidence to support them. Weak argument form. By which standard do you state this? Not acceptable to you? Or not acceptable to the people who agree with me, who agree with you, or don't agree with either of us? You talk a lot about things being subjective, but this statement is a prime example of that very thing. If it was some kind of 'unacceptable', do you not think that in the years this place has existed and operated with clear success, that it would have been addressed? Stop impressing upon everyone else what YOU think the standard should be. I said this early on but, when things aren't broken, there's no cause to leap towards fixing them. I don't care if it's a thing or not, but by no means will I sit by the wayside and not challenge something that I feel directly impacts a portion of the staff that is already restrained enough as it is. Your points made thus far do not satisfy me. As for 'not arguing against them', what do you feel all of this back and forth is if not arguments to the contrary of this concept? Honestly, it's beginning to sound like this is more about me because I happen to be the primary opposition to your points. Which is fine enough - but you ought to outright state as much.
By the standards this server has consistently upheld. Again, nowhere else does a rule like this exists. I'm not going to address the other things because they aren't the focus of this argument. This rule actively goes against the other rules or the purposes of said rules, the only exception being Goomba-Stomping. Which is just that: A clear exception for a good reason. There is no good reason to keep this the way it is.
Just a momentary side curiosity, what makes this a 'good reason'? Why isn't it treated the same way as other instances of accidental RDM?
Because it is often inconsequential and can be beyond control in normal playthrough. While you can do it on purpose, normally, it's just not. I'm sure there are other reasons, and I could probably break it down further if pressed, but that is how I view it on the surface level. Edit: To clarify this, you goomba stomp, most of the time, because of standard movement around the map. Aside from requiring forgiveness from the victim, a moderator's discretion on this matter begins and ends with determining if it was malicious or not.
Wrong. The fact that this has this much contribution is due to basically everybody arguing against the idea, besides 1 or 2 people who argue in circles in a world of their own and thus keep finding silly retorts that we then have to talk about once more eventhough the outcome was clear 2 pages ago. It's this logic of yours that really makes you appear smart, but sound really dumb. I could start a thread 'hitler did nothing wrong' and just see 5 pages of people flaming and say the exact same as you just said 'oh lookie, 5 pages on my hitler did nothing wrong thread, guess my thread is valid'
