proven innocents and 100% certainty; the movie

Discussion in 'TTT Discussion' started by john redcorn, Apr 20, 2020.

  1. john redcorn

    john redcorn strangers like me VIP Emerald

    The term "proven" only comes up twice in the rulebook (https://prnt.sc/s2wav4), used as a term to provide examples for toxic gameplay. The term itself is never defined or refined in any way, shape or form.

    Many would say the term proven is a non-detective you know is an innocent through an action THEY committed. Popular and examples everyone seems to agree on are you witnessing them killing a t, them testing, or them kosing a T at some point; all actions THEY committed. All these actions had a 100% chance of helping the innocents achieve their goal.

    Many would also say that one can get proven through actions they didnt commit, often involving a traitor; a traitor kosed them and died, a traitor shot their way and died, a traitor attempted to kill them and died before the job was done, etc. All actions where the player is an assumed victim of a horrible act of traitorhood and survived to tell the tale. All these actions. Unlike actions the player did, these actions are mostly deductive reasoning at hand and allows the player a great deal of imagination of how another player can be a proven innocent... even though a lot of these have some room for error compared to the former category.

    I really think we should define this down and take only enable a player to get "proven" based on actions they committed; traitors exist to kill, decieve, fuck, and procreate any way, shape or form they can. Their deceptions enable actions committed by them to be riddled in lies, and can't truly allow us to assume "100% certainty, this guy was shot at that T sooooo he's provennnn".

    There's just too much room for error, especially when compared to the common sense 100% certainty rule; it's really funning how we are allowed to simply trust a KOS from a traitor as a piece of evidence compared to doing a whole fucking rollout movement setup to secure a barn rdming operation. It's really funny lmao.

    Here's a fun quote to read alongside that video: "The reason there is flexibility in what it means to be proven is because it would make game-play horribly convoluted if we treated it differently, Pacifist gives a few good examples above."


    At the very least, define the term. At the very most, fuck daddy nexxus.
     
  2. john redcorn

    john redcorn strangers like me VIP Emerald

    also other fun talking point :

    Why is this an approved way of declaring a proven? If someone said miggo is a traitor and nilz the detective says hes proven, would you get in trouble for toxic gameplay for killing a proven even though the only proof I had was the detective said so?

    If I'm a detective and there's two other people left, I could just say "lol alrighty miggo is proven" and I could kill nilz since he wasnt proven since i said so

    do you realize how this just opens the door for more headache, heartbreak, and shitposting? This also shows that the "leniency afforded" even has trial mods misinterpreting the unstated intentions of the ruleset, with the most classic "no dont do that" of the proven genre.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
  3. john redcorn

    john redcorn strangers like me VIP Emerald

    also if i say my dead t buddy is a traitor, should that make me proven when he gets ided?
     
  4. Pokeben10

    Pokeben10 tell me pretty lies Moderator VIP Silver

    If nobody knows that you're a traitor, why wouldn't you be proven? All the innocents would just think that you were one of them who had just called out a traitor.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. john redcorn

    john redcorn strangers like me VIP Emerald

    because I’m a traitor, and this affects 100% certainty deductions by assuming I’m proven
     
  6. LeBlonde James

    LeBlonde James Supporter

    I see no problem here. I really don't care who's called 'proven' until I see clear actions with my own eyes.
    I've probably killed many people who were called proven, only for them to be Traitors because people will blindly follow the system.
    It broke. T buds call other T buds proven all the time. In fact, if I hear someone's proven I get more suspicious over them and whoever made the call. Too often of times I'm right.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. john redcorn

    john redcorn strangers like me VIP Emerald

    Also, a little last last last addendum; the whole reason for this thread to is discuss why a concept that doesn’t have 100% certainty is allowed to be acted on as evidence for common sense 100% certainty kills; it inherently breaks the concept of that.
     
  8. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    As far as I've always understood it, the only way to be 100% proven is through tester. And if you don't witness the testing you don't know if the person is proven since other people could be lying
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. Daddy Nexxus

    Daddy Nexxus Toxi-Fessional VIP

    Wait wtf
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Scarwolf

    Scarwolf Active Member

    I think theres a reason why its not the rules, and that is that it doesnt really exist with 100% certainty other than testing as said above. Since this game is about deception, i dont think this should be implemented or "defined". People know how to play.
     
  11. john redcorn

    john redcorn strangers like me VIP Emerald

    every kill you make currently using the process of deduction which often includes “proven” logic falls under the 100% certainty common sense clause, since there’s no other rule currently to further define what a proven is.
     
  12. Ted

    Ted The knight in white armor! Silver

    Hey there Wink,

    I followed the Q&A and since I was involved in the report itself I let my fellow staff members answer your question.
    Maybe I can shed some more light on why this is not put somewhere and why we don't make it a whole hassle to change or tighten this rule.

    If we would be to deny all the ways of getting proven that can hold a small chance where people did not get proven or we have to believe them on their word (like a chat kos) then we would only leave 2 options:
    On vanilla there are 3 maps with a tester that can't be altered or be used in any way where somebody can be falsely tested
    Motel, 67th way and mine shaft​
    The following maps can even be used to prove traitors as innocents in the tester:
    minecraft city and Nether

    I don't count B5 and jondome as B5's tester can be used as a traitor trap to mark innocents as traitor and jondome can let a traitor or innocent be teleported to the Traitor room.

    So for now the 100% guaranteed method is only map-specific to 3 maps in whole vanilla. Not to forget this only counts for people who saw the player get tested their selves. This does not count for a chat as "player has tested and is innocent"

    So the proven innocent would only be available for innocents on these 3 maps, making the rule map specific.


    There is another way to get 100% proven, but this one is only left to 1 specific kind of person if the server reaches a certain amount of players.
    The Detective can prove somebody to be the killer of a traitor by DNA or use it to find the owner of a T-only Items.​


    This would have a significant impact on how the current rules (and the rules during your tenure as lead) are and a lot of them should be altered if we would implement this way of getting proven.
     
  13. Santa Claus

    Santa Claus Best Member VIP Bronze

    TL DR but big if true ±1
     
  14. Santa Claus

    Santa Claus Best Member VIP Bronze

    ok now i read it. its okay +1
     
  15. john redcorn

    john redcorn strangers like me VIP Emerald

    Not too sure about nether, never tested there.

    using a detective , you can safely use the city tester since they are automatically proven innocents and will produce 100% certainty on green results. There has never been a straight ruling on this tester rule wise, a common misconception with this one is people think you kill all three if it turns red.



    B5 doesn’t deceit traitors as innocents .... only innocents can appear as innocents. Traitors, even flopping the result while testing can still only be shown as traitors.

    not too sure about jondome; If it actually confirms someone as innocent before sending them to a t room, you should still mark them as proven.

    Really not as restrictive as you imagine it being it seems, just need to think more about it and to rework how to use your tool sets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  16. Noctorious

    Noctorious Your Best Nightmare VIP Emerald

    But the result of the tester is still 100% accurate regardless of if someone is teleported to the traitor room