Karma Ban Exculpatory Evidence Archive [And Discussion]

intended or not, having no restraint in shooting people is still toxic play imho. And if it happens once or twice, that's an honest mistake, but not more than 5x in a few rounds which gets you karma banned. Besides, I personally think that if you're just waiting for someone to make a mistake by for instance taking too long to indentify a body while standing over it, is not trying to find a traitor, but just a 'legal way' to RDM people.

 

I'll take a moment to give you an admin's perspective @The Saw

So you clearly don't think that these karma bans are incorrect. From what I'm seeing you're using this thread as a medium to provide evidence on why you get so many karma bans. From what I've been seeing, your play-style is clearly not the same as normal people have on vanilla servers. You give short few seconds for people to do various things. One clip that I watched had you kill multiple innocents as people converged on an area where you killed a traitor. You killed one player as they were walking up to an unid from the hallway where they didn't even have time to ID the body in the first place since you killed them before they got to it.

You know what you're doing on the vanilla server, whereas most of the players there do not. Once you play the game enough, it becomes clear to you when you're making too many inno kills and when you're in a situation like in Karma Ban 93 from 0:50-1:05 or Karma Ban 95 1:00-2:00, your game-play is seriously needing to change a bit. If anything, I saw you in multiple of these videos realize that you were near a karma ban, and then stop killing or had others kill for traitorous acts you witnessed because you wanted to avoid the ban since you knew that you had been killing a lot of innocents.

I'd say your biggest issue here is your lack of respect for unid bodies and how they work. From these videos, I see you using them as a tool to kill players with instead of using them the way they're supposed to be used. Leaving a body that you've killed behind when you are fully able to identify it yourself creates a situation where another innocent may kill another innocent for an unid and you can then create an area where you're capable of killing any players that come into it. There is only the uncommon attempt to identify a body by you most of the time when you kill a player. In fact, when you kill players, most of the time you leave the body where it is and then follow up to use it to kill people that come by and don't ID it. This is not against the rules, but the way that you're using it also kills a lot of innocents on the vanilla server since they can take a while to identify the body, or tend to collapse on a situation when they hear gunfire.

Generally, you should be taking the effort to try to identify bodies, especially those that you kill. Reserve the situations where you leave things unid for when you know that there aren't very many innocent players that could fall into your trap that you've made with the bodies. Doing it early into the round simply creates a loss of karma and you'll rightfully get punished for it. The game-play style that you have in these cases is not fun to play against for the newer players, which is why you get far more reports than the average player does on the vanilla servers. The fact that they aren't even understanding a situation that they're walking up to and then being killed is something that you should take the chance to relate to and alter your game-play accordingly.

Overall, I'd support the idea of warning you for excessive karma bans, but I'd like to hear your opinions on what I've written before doing anything like that.

 

Whos opinion?

 

The law's

 

Judge Dredd

 

My gameplay isn't impeccable and I don't claim it to be

I made the conscious decision to upload all my karma bans and the decisions leading to them. This includes the good and the bad. I will make poor decisions from time to time, and that is reflected in the clips. Some clips show me making decisions in the heat of the moment that perhaps do contain overzealous decisions, upon which I should have showed some restraint; for example, karma ban 93 where I killed 3 players in a short time frame for unid's. I've chosen to upload every karma ban I receive, and every decision leading up to them. As a result there's going to be some errors shown, because I'm by no means perfect, and that's reflected in those clips. My intention of uploading these clips is not to say "Hey look at me, my gameplay is perfect, and I don't make any mistakes!" because that's not the case at all, and I don't claim all my decisions to be the most appropriate response in every scenario; Nor do I believe that every one of my karma bans is problem free. The intention of uploading these clips is to: "1) show that, in general, my gameplay is not toxic in nature and is played in a manner that is considered "acceptable," and 2) that if there should be a problem with how I'm playing that I can be made aware of it, and make changes as necessary." And as you have mentioned in your post, there were some decisions of mine that you took issue with, which I'll be addressing.
Explaining clips

I'm assuming you're referring to the "Karma Ban 93" clip wherein I killed 4 innocent players in 20 seconds. But allow me to explain my reasoning behind each of those kills, as you may have missed some details. 1) I hear shooting and death, I turn the corner to witness SPAM kill a player. But I refrain from shooting him at this time. However, I then also take into account that there is a unid'd body directly behind SPAM which he is walking away from. I also have this player threateningly walking towards me, weapon pointed in my direction. It is at this point I make the conscious decision to shoot him to avoid the risk he begins to shoot me as well. SPAM then puts his head down to ID a body, but at this point I'd already begun the process of shooting him. 2) Norcalnolan entered the scene during the point I was killing SPAM. In the video Norcalnolan was hit with crossfire by myself, and appears to be confused why he was shot by the detective. This was not evident to me in the heat of the moment, and I gave the player a few seconds to identify the body before killing him. This is a kill that should have shown restraint, an error I admit to. 3) The third victim, Texas, walks right past a clearly visible unid'd body at the back of the hallway (pool side), and without hesitation I also kill this player. Some restraint could have been shown here as well given the shooting that was taking place and the draw of attention it brings. Texas's priority isn't going to be to ID bodies, but rather investigate the shooting. So again, some restraint could have been shown here. 4) At this point I decided to leave the scene for 2 reasons, 1) to avoid having to identify the bodies putting me at risk of being shot, and 2) so I could avoid witnessing anymore traitorous actions and avoid making more rash decisions than I already had. The fourth innocent killed was Cosmo Raata, who followed me as I left the scene and began shooting at me shortly after.

I think I may be misunderstood in those clips of me where I am not killing for traitorous acts. I wanted to convey that throughout my rounds I let countless traitorous acts slide by; whether it being throwing nades, crossfire, killing innocents, unid'd bodies, false KOSes, etc. etc. Why do I let them slide? It's not to avoid karma bans as you suggest - I've been known to be notoriously bad at recognising when I'm close to being karma banned, so modifying my behaviour in light of an impending karma ban doesn't tend to happen. I let these traitorous acts slide because I either don't believe the player to be a traitor, or I don't believe the act(s) to be substantial enough to indicate them as a traitor. For instance, I choose not to kill SOK in clip 93 with the player having t-baited me. Because, it was clear to me that he was likely not a traitor due to his unusual behaviour. I did however have some fun and joke around with the surrounding players to point out what he was doing, which being on a vanilla server, someone incoherently killed him for it. I try to convey that I don't go around the map hunting for innocent players committing traitorous acts. Rather that I attempt to play the game as best as I can with the intention to kill players whom I believe to be traitors.

[CONTINUED ON NEXT POST] (character limit)

 

Addressing my biggest issue

It is very situational when I decide to identify a body or not. For instance, if I'm killing a player for committing a traitorous act, and they're surrounded by other players, I may choose to shoot the player from a safe location and avoid the group of players. If I was instead to walk into the group of players and begin shooting, I might as well write my suicide note prior. In another instance, say clip 96 at minute 2:24 where I kill Tim. There had recently been a shootout in the area, with multiple players in the surrounding area all looking at that spot. I very likely would have been shot dead had I stuck around the area to ID the bodies. So I made the decision to shoot and run hoping they wouldn't catch my name in the process. Why have I developed this behaviour? because in Vanilla you come to realise that players will kill you any chance they see. Vanilla players don't stop to think "hey this guy might be killing a traitor" etc. They'll shoot you the moment they see your gun fire, or the moment you turn your head down to the identify the body. And so in the clips when you see me choosing not to identify bodies, more often than not the reason is self preservation. That said, it's certainly not "uncommon" for me to identify bodies, I identify bodies frequently, but I will avoid doing so when I believe it is counter-intuitive to do so.

This said, I can clearly see the video you are referring to, clip 92 wherein I am seen early in the round purposefully leaving bodies in sight for players to walk over them and commit a traitorous act. I completely agree with you that this type of behaviour kills a lot of innocents and borders that line between appropriate play and toxic play. As such, I will attempt to improve my gameplay style by modifying my behaviour to refrain from using "unid tactics" early in a round.

I agree with your statement on reserving "unid tactics" for later in the round, and more often than not I do tend to reserve leaving unid's or planting unid's for the latter parts of the round, particularly when I believe I am one of the very few innocents left alive. I'd also tend to agree that I do receive more reports than the average player. But this is largely in part to players having a lack of understanding of the rules on Vanilla, players reporting others for killing them when they've clearly committed a traitorous act, and also due in part to the higher than average kills I might obtain in a match, among other things.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of your statements here, and I will attempt to modify my behaviour in game to more often than not attempt to identify bodies I encounter, and ensure I reserve "unid tactics" for later in the round.
Warning for excessive karma bans

You've mentioned that your primary concern is my behaviour with unidentified bodies. And I believe we both agree that my unid behaviour in a select few clips has been borderline toxic in nature, and as I stated above, I'll be modifying my behaviour and making changes as best I can in this area. However, in light of your mentioned concern being that of my unid behaviour, I cannot agree with a warning for excessive karma bans, and here's why:

Many of my karma bans are not the result of me killing for unidentified bodies. Most often than not I find myself killing players for various other traitorous acts. Let me provide you with some statistics on just what I mean:

Allow me to share some statistics with you in regards to my karma bans:
In this thread I have provided 6 clips of karma bans, totalling to 22 minutes and 45 seconds. In these karma bans I have engaged in damaging/killing players a total of 50 times. Of those 50 encounters, a mere 9 were for a player not identifying a body. Meaning that on average my karma bans make up about 5.5% killing for unid'd bodies. There are two outliers in the clips, both karma ban 92 and 93; both of which show me killing several players for unid'd bodies. In fact, 50% of my encounters in those clips were for unidentified bodies. You can see this is a far cry from my average of 5.5%. And so Graze it would seem you have based your decision off of two karma ban clips of mine, and negated to consider my other clips in your judgement to "support warning [me] for excessive karma bans."​

@Graze,
I thank you for taking the time to give me some pointers on what I should change in my playstyle, and many of these pointers I have agreed with and will work to make changes as best I can. But, as I've disputed, a warning for excessive karma bans for the issues you've cited in my gameplay would not, in my opinion, be appropriate in the context of considering all available karma ban clips.

 

Yeah it's me again.

Spoiler: Karma Ban 98

11/09/17 01:10AM

Explanations for kills

• I turn the corner to find ICEE_GLACIER kill two players. A gun fight ensues between us. All the while iSplaxh did not attempt to shoot at this player. iSplaxh also walks past an unid’d body. For these two reasons I decided to kill iSplaxh as well.
• I hear shooting, I turn the corner to find an unid with Tybe standing over it making no attempts to ID. I do not kill Siiiphls because he made attempts to ID the bodies.
• I witness iSplaxh throw 2 discombobs, the force of which had the potential to knock players off a ledge and take dmg. The decision was made to kill this player based off the danger he created, and consideration that the game was nearing an end with a small number of players remaining.
• I delayed killing iSplaxh because I was hoping to seize a better opportunity that wouldn’t result in me being killed. When I did finally take action and kill iSplaxin, THEMANDINGOWARRIOR unfortunately crossed into the line of fire and died. I retreated into the nether portal afterwards, where I was shot and KOSed by XeonToNeon. XeonToNeon and I engaged in a gun fight, and I ended up victorious in that fight.

 

killing icee_glacier was useless since most of eunilla/nilla ppl don't do that,
most of time they let those 2ppl sort it out between each other,and most of them don't know and don't cares "gba"
that discobomb kill was pointless since you saw no one getting harmed you just wanted to kill him and end up killing 2 more ppl with him, so the karma ban was your fault
and most vanilla ppl don't kill for throwing disco beside vips and donators
since you have over 1k or 2k hours you should know that try changing your gameplay.
ttt is meant to be fun not to kill every one in your way

 

you follow the rules so well i donut see why ppl are getting triggered

 

Nerd

 

That wasn't friendly DON'T RATE IT FRIENDLY

@panzershrimp
@panzershrimp

 

Dude I'm about to beat some people up

 

lovely

 

Spoiler: Karma Ban 99

This karma ban is a bit embarrassing, as it's just the result of sloppy gameplay, with crossfire and RDM mistakes. In my books, a deserved karma ban for sure. Also note that the recording has inconsistencies in the timeline due to cuts in the recording, and I had gone AFK to come back to a karma ban, so the end footage is missing as well.

Spoiler: Karma Ban 100

 

So when toxic gameplay
I've been waiting for ages

 

Spoiler: Karma Ban 101

11/27/17 11:07AM
Karma Ban 101

Events & Explanations
Noble shoots me, I shoot back.

I opted to kill Yourblueboy because I heard HUGE shots first, so I made the assumption he was most likely to be a traitor and decided to shoot him in attempts to save the player being shot.

Noble shoots me, I shoot back.

I then find 2 AFK players near to an unid'd body. I first ID the body to see the role. The dead player was innocent. I then make the assumption that these two AFK players were spared by the traitor because they were his traitor buddies. I decide to first kill the one closest to the body. I then ID the body to find they were innocent. At this point I choose not to kill the 2nd AFK due to the poor results of the first kill.

I opted to kill Sizziling Sisig because I heard the shotgun shots first and made the assumption that he was most likely the traitor.

I am then shot at Asunapvpro, I shoot back.

I am then again shot by Lee, I shoot back.

I kill an AFK player in overtime.

And finally, after some significant delay, I notice the player EdivadRes wander off alone from the last remaining players (usually a tell tell sign of a traitor looking to kill players away from the group). I follow said player and opt to bait him into shooting me, he does, and I shoot back. The round ends.

 

Spoiler: Karma Ban 103

Note that video will take ~1 hour to process.

(apparently I missed karma ban 102)

 

A very old video. My first karma ban.
I think it's in 360p

 

Spoiler: Karma Ban 104

Missing

Spoiler: Karma Ban 105

Spoiler: Karma Ban 106