How to prove when a traitor buys something from the traitor menu & a rule clarification suggestion

Discussion in 'Rules and Protocol' started by sephr, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. sephr

    sephr Member

    If the pointshop auto-switch function is not disabled, another way to prevent abuse of killing people for buying traitor weapons is to require something like this in the rules:

    "If you correctly deduce that a player has purchased an item from the traitor menu, you only have 5 seconds to act on this information."

    Then all the mods have to do to make sure that the player isn't rdming random people is to check if the traitor purchased a traitor weapon within 5 seconds of being shot by the other player. Longer than 5 seconds before the inno started shooting at the traitor? Slay for probable rdm/suspicion killing.
     
  2. Whitewolfx0

    Whitewolfx0 Keep the shiny side up. VIP

    But discombobs throw ammo a great distance.
     
  3. sephr

    sephr Member

    Correct, and in those situations you can see the ammo box flying through the air. If you didn't notice and incorrectly think that they bought something in the traitor menu, then you get slain. It is the KOSers responsibility to pay a reasonable amount of attention before making the KOS. You can make the argument that a KOSer wasn't paying enough attention for many different situations. Sometimes people see a bullet and aren't paying enough attention, so they attribute the bullet to an incorrect shooter and get slain for killing the wrong person. This kind of inattention applies to most of the rules, but it doesn't make them bad rules.
     
  4. CorallocinB

    CorallocinB Animeme lord VIP Silver Emerald

    I'll personally bump this because I'd like to see what comes out of this as it is a game changing mechanic.

    @Darktooth what say you?
     
  5. I still want to know if I can use this method
     
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  6. Darktooth

    Darktooth I was #1 VIP

    Sorry for the lack of response. I've been very very busy the whole month of July, and I will get to reading this over and responding ASAP.
     
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  7. DocFox

    DocFox The Best Is Yet To Come VIP Silver Emerald

    He's talking about the pointshop accessible by F3; not the traitor shop.
     
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  8. Squidd

    Squidd VIP

    Now that I've read every post in this thread thoroughly, I'm eagerly awaiting Dark's response.

    I sit in the same boat as Sephr, as that we both love thinking while playing. I'm constantly marking people for "kill" but not acting on it because my deductions don't "follow server rules." (Who knows how I do it, I just got a sixth sense for it. Its usually a 90%~ success rate). Knowing who the T is but not being able to act on it is the WORST feeling. I'm not complaining about it though, I understand why these rules are set in place. If everyone just started using their intuition, the server would be RDM Hell.

    Anyways, I'd love to see this suggestion introduced. I think there's enough solid evidence there, and enough counter-measures T's can make so it wont disturb the balance of things.

    Thanks for the interesting read.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Serious Lawyerbot

    Serious Lawyerbot Supporter

    From what I see there is flaws in this argument.
    1. Disabling auto equip removes a large chunk of situations and it is more a new player mistake.
    2. The sound itself? Someone could have bought a grenade.
    3. Pistol ammo is an iffy thing. Unless you see the persons pistol as they pick up the ammo or watch them while they say have a colt or other non 9mm pistol ammo users then yes. You can shoot the person for it.

    All other ammo types have some sort of counter part in detectives.

    And this is, I commend you for all your research, very sketchy. It relies on a lot of variables such as locations. As is we have in depth rules to try and stop loophole trolling but overall we should hear from the higher ups. For how much research was done you can still tell directionally who bought it and well. That is incredibly hard to prove. Just because it does allow sounds in a direction doesn't necessarily mean the sound is 100% accurate directionally. Every sound made inside a videogame does have a direction of some sort if it was built with that in mind.
    However it doesn't mean the size of the sound would tell you by exact degree where it came from. You get general direction. And again with the doors. Behind closed doors? how do you prove that? I see this more a case of WvW abuse than anything else. That and specific mods going Well you did buy A traitor weapon but it wasn't THE traitor weapon they said despite the stark difference in models. Now this last part was situations I have been in to serve as example. Itll only make the situation even worse off.
    We as a community have to reduce the amount of situations that can easily transpire and get away without punishment if we don't record.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
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  10. DocFox

    DocFox The Best Is Yet To Come VIP Silver Emerald

    Even grenades auto equip.
     
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  11. Salisian

    Salisian An unbroken series of successful gestures VIP

    The point brought up in the initial post is clearly: "There are situations in which an innocent can be 100% sure that a person is a traitor because of intimate knowledge of custom server weapons and how the SGmod menus function vis-à-vis ammo pickups and weapon buy sounds, respectively."

    As I stated in a post over a year ago, this server generally doesn't punish certainty predicated on logic. There are situations in which someone may apply any particular element of this logic incorrectly, but then there are situations where it is sound.

    The question becomes, then: "Is this intended; and if not, do we fix it, and how do we fix it?"

    Is it intended? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. Traitors shouldn't have a tell like that. We have a pretty explicit core for "things that happen that let you identify someone as a traitor," and it's my opinion that watching for ammo pickups shouldn't be a part of that core gameplay.
    Do we fix it? I assume yes, unless the obvious fixes are sufficiently difficult to implement.
    "How do we fix it?" is the debate we should be having.

    My opinion is that there should be some uniformity of behavior between the F3 menu and the traitor buy menu to prevent noise-deduction. I don't think there is an easy fix for the ammo pickup logic line, apart from introducing a sufficient number of custom weapons to make that logic impossible. Make a pistol with sniper rifle ammo (crossbow?) or something.
     
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  12. keensta

    keensta New Member

    Removing the code for auto switch on pointshop is a easy and doable thing.
     
  13. CorallocinB

    CorallocinB Animeme lord VIP Silver Emerald

    Progress report?
     
  14. Zypther

    Zypther #SuitUp VIP Bronze Iron

    If this still needs it +1
     
  15. tz-

    tz- feelin it VIP Emerald

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  16. Darktooth

    Darktooth I was #1 VIP

    Yet again, I've gone on vacation for the duration of this week and weekend. I've read through this thread and understand the claims being brought forward, however I don't want to respond without extreme thought and an argument for what I believe in. @Disruptionz, would you mind giving your input? I've delayed this discussion for quite a while.
     
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  17. Myself and @Darktooth have discussed this suggestionand have come to a conclusion on what we want to do, but before we release anything publicly, we're going to get some final input from @Highwon as well.

    Sit tight, and we'll have a finalized response tomorrow.
     
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  18. Darktooth

    Darktooth I was #1 VIP

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. DasSauce

    DasSauce Member

    I hope you guys disable auto-equip and do not make this a thing, to be honest. I think implementing something like 'you can kill someone for hearing an equip noise and it wasn't ammo or an auto-equip weapon' is going to create much more harm than benefit. Sure, it rewards skilled players but it will make newer players frustrated and will make them not want to play because they will not understand why they were killed. Obviously one can say 'git gud' but why would anyone new want to or continue to play in a server with the mentality that essentially screws over new players in favor of veteran players.

    TL;DR:
    Disable auto-equip and don't do this
    TTT has (semi) steep learning curve already
    Screws newer players entirely
    More harmful than beneficial
    You want to ease new players in as to keep and expand a thriving community

    @Darktooth
    @Disruptionz
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
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  20. Ravin

    Ravin Determination VIP

    [​IMG]
     
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