If a detective damages you per the extended rules you are allowed to kill them in self-defense. In regards to @kingsaib0t 's case and in other cases, why is there an expiry time limit to when that self-defense is null and void? If a regular(innocent) player were to do that you'd very well have the right to kill them at any point in time even if it is 30 seconds later. Is the argument here now instead the innocent has committed a traitorous act and that's why the kill can be prolonged/delayed? If so, the implication here is also that self-defense can only occur when a player has committed a traitorous act, however detectives are immune to traitorous acts so why would self-defense apply to them in the first place following this philosophy? The argument that you can no longer kill the detective because you are no longer in immediate danger implies that there is an unwritten time limit on self-defense. If this is the case, why is the time limit not listed? Is it 5 seconds? 10? 30? There's a clear discrepancy with enforcing something even the mods can't give a solid answer to. If all they're stating is "that's too long of a time" how're we supposed to know what is and isn't too long? Are we supposed to just pray that we're playing with a staff-member that has a longer than normal discretion zone for what timing is appropriate? That seems a little absurd. If there is in fact a threshold of time that is appropriate for self-defense to still qualify as self-defense then it should be listed. Stating that the nature of some self-defense kills and prolonging when to kill is not "fair", when it is against a detective, does not make it against the rules and slay worthy. That would be on the verge of potential toxic gameplay if we're talking about natures of kills and intent. If you don't want to see players killing Detectives 5 minutes from when a player was damaged - then say so explicitly in the rules and tell us what timing is okay and what is not. Why would we be slain by a mod that's been given automatic discretion to determine how long self-defense can last. From my understanding, how the rules are right now you can kill anyone except your own T-buddies for self-defense except in cases of clear crossfire. There is no mention of time, nor is there any connotation that if a Detective stops firing at you then you can no longer kill them for self-defense. The argument that by killing a Detective you hurting your team is weak. Innos kill Innos all the time. Detectives kill Innos. Traitors C4 kill Traitors all the time. If you were really looking to take away the possibility of 'hurting your team' you'd implement a system that prevents team damage all-together, and you can see how dumb of an Idea that would be. That'd take away from the whole game itself. My question is, where's the time-limit in the rules if you're going to enforce it as if it was already there?
I'm sure you've read the post about this discussion too, but I'm honestly unsure why it isn't public either. The time limit for killing a detective that is no longer shooting/damaging you is less than a couple of seconds. It's either he shoots and you shoot 1-shot him right away or RDM. Walking away from line of fire to chase him down? RDM. Even from the example, if the detective damages you and stops to reload, the time limit has expired and you can't kill him in self-defense. The situations where it's valid to kill a detective are very very elaborate and specific, to the point where if you simply look at any case about killing a detective in self defense, you'd have a really good chance to just assume it's RDM. I personally think the ruling is absurd about how small the window is (considering the 5-second grace period is, well, 5 seconds). However, that is to say that an innocent killing a detective is by all means knowingly hurting his own team. Maybe perhaps the Leads should re-vamp this rule like they did others since it hasn't been changed since original post by @DieKasta , I believe. Maybe it was Falcor; unsure but it was ruled by a lead in a clarification post about rules.
A Detective isn't just a "regular player". You know their role from the get-go. The reason you can kill a Detective actively shooting and damaging you you is because you know your own role as innocent, regardless of if you did a traitorous act or not. If you are damaged directly and actively by anyone in the game, you can shoot back to preserve your own life. It's no different for Detectives. To kill a detective later on because he damaged you out of confusion, a legitimate reason like DNA, or simply RDM, serves no real purpose. You're actively helping the Traitors by eliminating a player who is undoubtedly innocent, and has ways to help other potential innocents, even after the damage has been done. The argument that "Innos kill Innos all the time" is irrelevant. You don't know other people's roles unless they have been tested. Few maps have testers, and even fewer players get proven through this method. A Detective is innocent no matter what, hence why they are immune to traitorous acts, and this is the reason they are exempt from such plays as killing them later in the game because they shot at you prior. Use common sense when firing back at a Detective. If they stop firing, you don't have to cease, but if it's clear he's no longer a threat when he clearly can be shooting you, saying "Sorry" or "I'll get you a health station" on mic or chat, I'd say it's time to kiss and make up I don't know why you need a rule for something that needs just a hint of common sense. You don't need a rule for every little thing, otherwise they would be infinite. Use your best judgement and don't be a dick
Heya @POP STAR , We already talked about this on TS and clarified where the rule is now, and what ideas there are for it- but I'll state it here as well. You quoted the correct rule that is related to this- the portion that sounds like it could use some defining is, what is "directly damaging"? You are allowed to kill a detective in self defense, if the detective is currently in the process of attacking you. If they cease to attack you and then you initiate your attack, then you may be slayed for RDM since you are no longer being directly attacked. There is no unpublished time-limit as you have mentioned. It will be up to the staff member who is currently moderating to determine whether the player is currently being attacked directly. This should be fairly easy to determine using our tools such as shot-logs and deathscenes- but we also realize that this may end up in some reports being word vs word where it won't be determinable whether the the detective has really stopped their attack or not. To address some of your questions directly: This is correct. Self-defense can expire if you are no longer being attacked- however traitorous acts do not expire. I'm not sure where the implication comes from that traitorous acts must occur. Self-defense applies when someone is directly attacking you. So you're correct- if this is done by a traitor or innocent, it would happen to be considered a traitorous act. But it is not considered a traitorous act, nor is it necessary for it to be, in the case of the detective. The two are exclusive. There is no unwritten time limit on self defense. This is somewhat discretionary and can be determined by viewing the death scene and shot logs behind the incident. I understand the confusion here since we do have a 5-second grace period after IDing traitor bodies. However, the situations are not really the same. In the case with the detective- you already know the is proven, and harming the detective is counter-productive to the gamemode. So if the detective is no longer attacking you- the only reason it would make sense to kill the detective is out of revenge - which shouldn't be encouraged by our rule set. If the detective shot you, and you are no longer in danger, or being attacked by the detective- it doesn't make sense to the spirit of the game mode to attack the detective. If the detective RDM'd, then this will be dealt with by staff. There will be a bit of discretion involved in determining whether the detective is continuing to attack or not- and this is okay. Our tools are good enough to the point where in most of these cases, this will be easily determined. If not, then unfortunately this may come down to a word vs word situation. But setting a time-limit is setting a precedence that it's okay to kill the detective, even when you're not being actively attacked, which just doesn't make sense. Yes innos kill innos, and traitors kill traitors- but for the most part if the game is being correctly then this is minimized and we shouldn't have rules that encourage more team-killing when it is avoidable. So to answer your overarching question; No. There is no time limit between when the detective attacks and when you kill the detective where it goes. However, the detective must be in the process of directly attacking you in order for you to apply self-defense. If the detective stops attacking you, you then can not go hunt down the detective and take care of him yourself. As far as implementing the time limit- I'd be open to hear the opinion of others on this- this would be well suited in a suggestion post. Let me know if you have anymore questions! Helix
Wait, so if the det And I are both in the vents on dolls, both on either openings, and the det shoots me and then goes outside the vent to get a better angle, I can’t go around the other side or the side he went out of to kill the det?? Literally the same situation can be used on any map. The det shoot me, runs around the corner, I can’t go after him for shooting me??
Here is my suggestion for a time limit on self-defense....it applies whenever the person attacks you,and up to 1-2 seconds after that.
