Can we Clarify Harassment?

Since nowdays admins will only look at the first three lines and ignore just about everything else, I am forced to make another question post. I am making it public rather than seeking clarification in PM because clarifications and answers will have a general benefit to the community. Now, onto the question. Which will include the majority of my first post that went completely unanswered, so please, don't flag as duplicate.


1. In a situation where someone persistently contacts someone or goes out of their way to comment on their words or actions in game, despite a multitude of attempts to discourage interaction and making it clear we don't want to talk to them, are we not allowed to say something along the lines of "I don't like you" or "Leave me alone", sometimes with different phrasings?

2. Is it just whatever offends anyone? If I said to a Trump Supporter "Hey, Your idol, Donald Trump has tiny, dollish hands" would that be harassment? Or, flipping the political spectrum "Hey, Your idol, Bernie Sanders, is a wifebeating sexist". Both are objectively untrue, but they could really offend someone.

3. If the person reporting the harassment reports me for saying "You are fat" on their wall and shout-box, but they themselves have called dozens of people fat, and even posted on my wall moments before that I was fat, would I still get the harassment warning?

Edit: And I would appreciate if I could get a response that doesn't seem like it was copy and pasted from the admin's textbook

 

1. If they are doing this. Report them to staff for they are harassing you. You do not need to talk with them past that point. They very well could be harassed by you back if you are not careful.

2. No. This is getting political or ethical at this point so it's not harassment. Opinions can be offensive, but this is getting a bit away from the intention of harassment, and there is no way that you can viable argue for this as this is a clearly separate situation than what Wink responded to in your last thread.

3. Yes. As you harassed them.

I don't think the rule needs clarification, as these are all pretty common sense answers if just abiding by the definition of harassment.

 

Moved to TTT discussion.

 

Okay. Can we get a more nuanced response? Where we look at the broader terms? Unless you find it acceptable for a player who has been going on for the past week calling everyone fat, then you post "You're fat" as a joke and get banned for harassment.

 

Don't harass them back. Report them for harassing others. I updated my post to describe a little more into the situation.

 

Ok. I wouldn't exactly say it's different. You are pointedly targeting the person they consider to be great, because they consider them great. And keep in mind, you thought the fat thing was all joke

 

I don't have a response that I feel would pacify you.

 

Then don't comment. My goal here is to address how people, especially trolls, can currently manipulate the system in order to punish innocent players. Or, how people who are especially sensitive and would take anything that might slightly be offensive and report it, even though they say the exact same things all the time, or it's so benign to you you wouldn't give it a second thought.

 

My definition of harassment: You're being an asshole or just very annoying to a person.

 

To all the people rating, are you going to say you approve of the following:
Kid logs in. Starts saying "Ur Bad" to everyone he comes across. You say "Ur Bad" back. Kid reports you and you get banned for harassment.

 

In this scenario, you are being harassed, and you should report it. Staff members aren't telepathic, if someone doesn't complain or we otherwise don't know they're feeling harassed (sometimes it is hard to differ between playful banter and harassment), sometimes it slips through.

Being offended and being harassed is completely different. In your example, that isn't harassment. However, if someone decided to turn a debate (whether heated or not) into an ad-hominen attack it would easily turn into harassment. For example, someone is arguing that Trump doesn't have tiny dollish hands, and another person calls them a retard for liking Trump. That's a personal attack, and is harassment.

Again, as I said above staff aren't telepathic - if none of the other people who he posted on reported him, it may just be viewed as playful banter. If he decides to report you, this doesn't necessarily mean it'll result in punishment. Especially if he's found to be trolling. Harassment is typically persistent, calling someone fat once is more just being rude and disrespectful. However, persistently attacking someone verbally is harassment.

 

If a player got banned for saying "ur bad" back, they obviously did something else, that compounded, and resulted in a ban. Saying someone is bad at a game once is just being rude/disrespectful. Persistently attacking them, taunting them, etc. based on their skills in a game is a different story altogether.

 

Sorry to bother, but this is a discussion. Not everything in discussion has to satisfy what each person wants. Graze can input his opinions if he wants to if it contributes to the discussion. That's where I disagree on your statement of "Then don't comment."

Now back to the topic:
1) Context is needed.
2) How will other people react to such comments?
3) What is the person's history? (i.e., has the person been accused for toxicity, etc.)

These are some of the basic things that we should use when taking a look at what is considered harassment.


To give a broad answer to your questions:

Language is a powerful thing we have. It's how we say things. Some words carry a much more negative connotation than others. It depends on how you word things. People have to consider some things such as "Are you trying to come across as rude or respectful?" or "How do I want the person I am communicating perceive the message?" Now, nobody is perfect, and there can be misunderstanding due to them interpreting the message differently because they perceive things differently due to their culture, experiences, etc. What other people think as harassment might not be what you think as harassment. Again, this is because we all perceive things differently.

 

When this happened to me, and I went to the staff, nothing happened because I didn't have enough evidence. This happened twice, with the recent player and a player I met when I first joined the server. It took 4 months for the situation to be resolved, and it was only resolved because he broke other rules enough times.

This was a bad example of what I was trying to communicate, but I was told by several admins, including falcor, that it is harassment if someone is offended by what you said.

back to my own ban: I said exactly one time to this player that I didn't like them. I also, in the same sentence, called them toxic and told them to fuck off, but according to admins, saying "I don't like you" once is enough to warrant harassment. The person I said this to has said all those things to me in the past, or things like it, multiple times, over an extensive period

 

I completely agree, but saying "I don't know how to pacify you" is hardly productive in a conversation, and contributes absolutely nothing.

 

I mean, they did something to warrant the first warning point. However, their second warning came when they used the phrase that player B was spamming everywhere, they posted it on Player B's profile while player B was still spamming the phrase, and got banned when player B reported them

 

Discretion is better than an exact outline

 

And I'm sorry that happened, and that you feel that way. But without enough evidence our arms are tied.

Perhaps they misinterpreted the question. Simply saying Trump looks like a cheeto isn't harassment. However, someone could say it in such a way that makes it harassment. "Trump looks like a cheeto and anyone that disagrees is an idiot". This is aggressive and it discourages players who would otherwise disagree because they're feeling personally attack for their opinion. Regardless of the player calling them out directly.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. I was simply saying that tamely calling someone "fat" once doesn't exactly have to qualify as harassment. Which is why I said "typically" harassment is persistent. But it doesn't have to be be. Throwing multiple insults into a single post can definitely qualify as harassment - especially if the harassing player has a bad history with the harassed player. Judging by what you said, you're both harassing eachother - and with a history, just adding more direct insults would immediately qualify as harassment.

And to clarify on what I said with harassment being persistent, for other players: it doesn't have to be. If a new player joined and someone didn't like their username so they insulted them because of it - sure, those two players don't have a history but it would still qualify as harassment.

Keep in mind a scenario that qualifies as harassment typically could have been handled in a manner that wouldn't qualify as harassment. And context definitely matters. Especially when you say something like "I don't like you, go away". When you say "go away", and it isn't in a playful manner, you're attempting to apply aggressive pressure to get them to go away. While that may be your goal, it is still harassment.

 

--> It's unfortunate that it took that much time to reach a resolution with your issues, but understand that we don't simply take harassment lightly and unless we have proper evidence, we do not take action against players.

--> It can be harassment if it is interpreted as such, which can be referred to as a personal attack or displaying aggressive pressure against others.

The problem is that you're displaying aggressive pressure/personal attacks by calling him toxic and using that kind of language. This is why your language was interpreted as harassment while Rozboon's language wasn't treated as such. He wasn't attacking you and simply explaining his side of the scenario to which you responded in a hostile manner throughout your former status update.

 

I'll give an example. Say Player A and Player B have a history of harassing eachother. Player B is playfully posting "ur bad" on multiple people's profiles, likely friends or acquaintances he knows won't be offended, and then Player A comes in and posts the same thing on Player B's profile. Now, Player B and Player A hate eachother, so Player B is going to take that as an insult, and not playful banter. So Player A IS harassing Player B.