[Against The Rules] Building Above The Nether- A Discussion

Discussion in 'Archived Minecraft Discussion' started by The Law, Feb 26, 2017.

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  1. The Law

    The Law You fought the law and the law won. VIP Silver Emerald

    For those of you who are unaware, for many years since the addition of the nether, players have been able to gain access to a special flat area above the nether's bedrock. To access the top of the nether it involves the process of glitching through the layer of bedrock. One need only to search Youtube for "how to get on top of the nether" to see hundreds of thousands of videos dating back years to recognize that this area is well known and utilized by many for a variety of creative building projects.

    Benefits for players accessing the top of the nether:
    1. A free space for players to build their creations in an infinitely flat world, making it perfect for building structures.
    2. Pigman spawners/Gold Farms- A player who builds a Gold farm atop the nether decreases their work load in creating the farm, because building up high, near the building limit unloads all potential spawning areas below. Opposed to building the same farm within the normal confines of the nether, which will yield significantly less spawns due to spawnbale areas being loaded outside the farm. To combat this issue, the builder will be required to half slab or lava potential spawn areas outside the farm to limit pigmen spawning inside the farm only.
    3. Mushroom collection- lots of mushrooms spawn on top of the nether roof. So if you like soup, then this is the place to go for your ingredients.
    1. Pigman can spawn on non-transparent blocks. If you don't want Pigman spawning in your home then you need to make your floors out of transparent blocks, such as glass or halfslabs.
    2. You cannot place water, but just about any other object in the game is placeable.
    [Reason for post:]
    A recent conversation with staff regarding the topic resulted in being threatened with a pending punishment for utilizing a well known area to build structures. In light of this, I'd like to discuss this area and why I think an exception is a coherent stance to side for on this topic, as well as query the rational behind stopping players from accessing the top of the nether. It would seem a ruling was just recently made on this situation, and I'd like to be filled in on the rational behind that decision.

    If Mojang considered this a game-breaking exploit then it would've been patched ages ago. The glitch has been around for so long that it's very much so considered an easter egg nowadays, and far from being referred to as a game-breaking exploit. Some might argue that using the space above the nether gives an unfair advantage, but if you look at the list of benefits there is no clear game-breaking advantage given to a player by having access to this area, and anything accomplished in this area can be replicated elsewhere. Then again, some may argue that creating a Pigman farm in the nether is overpowered. However, I can confirm that this is woefully untrue due to the spawn rate limitations that have been set on our server, which also impair AFK functioning. Not to mention the fact that there exists other methods of creating gold farms, which in the case of the lower spawn rates may actually be more effective and capable of AFK functioning.

    Moving onto the rules portion of this argument, I have highlighted the rules applicable to this situation:

    As noted in the rules, Block Abuse has a specific clarification that singles out personal claims as the primary application for this ruling. The application of this rule to personal claims is in place to prevent players from bypassing another players protected home and killing them unfairly. The function of personal claims is to protect both the player and their base from the environment (ie. violent players and griefing). Player's expect these mechanics to function properly, and to have their base accessed through exploiting methods of block abuse breaks these mechanics and impacts their experience negatively on the server, and rightfully so these practices have been clarified as punishable offenses.
    Now, because of the vague nature of rule 4, it becomes possible to generalize this rule outside of personal claims and apply it to other areas, such as in this case, the methods used to access the top of the nether. And these methods are in conflict with the wording of this ruling. If we go back to why this rule applies to personal claims in the first place, we know that it is there to prevent negative experiences for players, and so we must also ask, does glitching atop the nether negatively impact the experience of players? No. So then why I ask has this rule been applied and what purpose does it serve? It's logical to understand why rules are applied to situations that disrupt the gameplay for others and cause negative experiences, but it is not logical to relate glitching atop the nether as a situation that also negatively impacts users experiences when it does not. It's like comparing apples to oranges, the two are similar in that they conflict with the wording of a rule, but are distinctively different in that one negatively impacts players, while the other does not. And so what I'd like to ask is whether or not the staff are enforcing this ruling for the sake of it being in conflict with the wording of a rule, or if they're applying it for an actual negative impact that it creates. Because, if you're going to stretch a rule to apply to a specific situation, then there needs to be logical reasoning for its application, otherwise you should not be generalizing the rule to that situation. It becomes nothing but detrimental to enforce a ruling that limits the creative freedom of players when it serves no purpose other than to be in line with the wording of a rule.

    In closing, my suggestion would be to reconsider the ruling made on accessing the top of the nether to be against the rules, and look at making this area an exception to the broad reach of rule 4, and allowing players to utilize this unique area.

    Thank you for reading, and I would appreciate others opinions on the matter as well. Thanks.

    Tagging in the primary governing body: @Robokiller87 @Disruptionz @Highwon
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
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  2. CorallocinB

    CorallocinB Animeme lord VIP Silver Emerald

    As it currently stands the interpretation of the rules states that you cannot access areas that would require glitching through blocks.

    The rules use claims as an example:
    • Using items such as Chorus Fruit or Ender Pearls to glitch through blocks in order to access areas, such as personal claims, that you would normally not have access to through conventional means. If you would like to attack a player in their home, use /siege

    and is not the only applicability for this rule. I am aware that Mojang would have fixed this ages ago if it were an issue however I could say the same about ender pearls and shooting thru a solid thin glass pane yet here we are with these issues not fixed and they're clearly an issue as users die for it. You can state that the nether area is different, but I would ask "how so" since it still violates the stated rule. You may state "I don't use ender pearls or Chorus fruit to access the top of the nether" and still whatever you do use would still be considered block abuse and once more I would state that those two items are exemplary of block abuse.

    In any case, the rules currently state that this is not allowed and if the rule rework that's coming soon would allow this then that's the end of this story. Unless @Disruptionz gives special permission to allow this to occur, the rules state that glitching through blocks to access any type of area otherwise unaccessible is against the rules.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
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  3. Zypther

    Zypther #SuitUp VIP Bronze Iron

    Thin is, you can break the bedrock, is that considered exploiting? I know of some ways I can do it without having to be on the nether roof, and it is simple but would take me some one to do.
  4. CorallocinB

    CorallocinB Animeme lord VIP Silver Emerald


    "Bedrock cannot be broken using any tools. It also cannot be moved by pistons or destroyed by explosions that are present in survival gameplay."

    It cannot be broken, and if it is broken it's by block abuse.
  5. Zypther

    Zypther #SuitUp VIP Bronze Iron

    So is nether portals removing blocks block abuse?
  6. CorallocinB

    CorallocinB Animeme lord VIP Silver Emerald

    Yes. Using any sort of exploit to access areas otherwise unaccessible is block abuse.

    Nether portals, ender pearls, dragon eggs, chorus fruit, any unnatural means to destroy blocks that you should not be allowed to in order to access an area is block abuse.
  7. Zypther

    Zypther #SuitUp VIP Bronze Iron

    so everytime a nether portal spawns, when it isnt in the air is block abuse, because they break blocks. I believe @Disruptionz @irritatingness @Deathbyrussian need to talk about this because they are the heads of this server section, this might require owner's/devs standpoint. I dont know if @Highwon knows/has the power in this part, but ill tag him too
  8. Tinbuster00

    Tinbuster00 See you on the forums! VIP Silver Emerald

    Damn, it'd be nice to be able to build something in survival but on a flat world
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  9. EhhChris

    EhhChris Advisor. VIP Silver Emerald

    I'd argue this is in the context that if a nether portal is used to grief a base by intentionally having it spawn on someone's claim. I don't think that'll work anyway unless a user is trusted or owns said claim, but I know it's possible if you are. I can test this some more later, but I won't be home until after 7-8pm EST.
  10. The Law

    The Law You fought the law and the law won. VIP Silver Emerald

    As I figured, it would seem that the consensus of staff is to follow rules indiscriminately, regardless of whether they have any logical rational for their application.
    Thus, I offer a possible solution to be an idea of having the developers create a warp point called "Nether Void", allowing players to access this area without breaking the rules. @irritatingness @Deathbyrussian
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  11. Juice Juice™

    Juice Juice™ VIP Emerald Bronze

    What if we made the top of the nether the PVP safe zone a lot of people wanted early on? Since it's almost purely designed for construction, and it doesn't mesh effectively with any other zone?
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  12. Pacifist

    Pacifist Cynically Insane VIP Bronze

    Look, I'd argue that this should be allowed. The Law makes this argument that getting their is not very hard, and that anyone can get there. Not to mention it has a hand full of advantages and disadvantages. I personally would love to be able to build here, as it is flat enough and promises that I wont be attacked very often. For a non-pvper like myself this is the perfect solution for all my problems. I see no problem with this being allowed, considering how easy it is to get there:
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  13. AnarkisT

    AnarkisT ★ No Gods, No Masters. ★ VIP Silver Emerald

    Just gonna offer my two cents,

    Building above the nether, and getting up there in the first place is ultimately benign, it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm okay with that, Yes, you have to glitch to get up there, but the entire reason block glitching is a rule I'd assume is to prevent people from getting into bases, not necessarily parts of the world.

    Heres what I do have a problem with. It might seem weird to bring up the market, but its no secret the server economy is kind of screwed right now, and being able to farm one of the only resources that still holds some kind of value (Gold) would just screw it up even more.
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  14. Zikeji

    Zikeji Repoleved VIP Emerald

    A potential issue with giving out access to the top of the nether: world limit. There is none that I can tell, which means players could stress the server to a pretty good degree in an environment where they could fly straight without obstacles. A situation easily fixed by adding a limit, but it has to be done before people build out.

    As for the topic of getting on top of the nether: http://technical-minecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Breaking_Bedrock

    The article starts with:
    Granted, the article isn't official.
  15. The Law

    The Law You fought the law and the law won. VIP Silver Emerald

    I mentioned this briefly in my post about dispelling these concerns:
    1) There are multiple methods to creating gold farms, it is not a requirement to build one in the nether void. You can just as easily replicate a gold farm within the confines of the nether. Also, see this video for an example of a gold farm in the overworld: (Link)- a similar setup @MallePietjeNiet is currently using on the server.
    2) Spigot limitations set on our server severely impact spawn rates of pigman, so acquiring large sums of gold is a lengthy process. Meaning you're not going to become rich overnight, in fact there are currently better methods out there of making currency.

    There is already a limited list of viable ways in which currency can be made on the server, and a gold farm is just one of those scarce options available to players. If you're still concerned that farming gold would break the economy, then you'd have to either lower the sell price of gold, or say that gold farms are no longer allowed on the server, which would of course put further limitations on players and continue to narrow the ways in which players can make money. But like I said in the points above, I don't believe these courses of action are necessary.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  16. Juice Juice™

    Juice Juice™ VIP Emerald Bronze

    As to the currency thing, no matter what gold farm you might have, I and several other players have villagers, or a villager spawner, which is infinitely more profitable (and faster_ than a gold farm.
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  17. The Law

    The Law You fought the law and the law won. VIP Silver Emerald

    And even without a villager spawner, just having a few villagers with farms catering to their trades can net some serious cash.
  18. xdxd ive been ontop of the neather so many tiems at the begining of the season with rtp
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  19. Renko

    Renko VIP Iron

    guess who's back?
  20. DTKGamer

    DTKGamer Emerald


    Just something I thought I'd point out...The creators themselves encourage the use of "bugs" (including enderpearl-ing into the nether ceiling and breaking through the bedrock). these are just a couple of the many features considered acceptable by the majority of Minecraft players, both on servers and in their own singleplayer worlds.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
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