A Serious Discussion Regarding the Irony of our "Serious" Community, as well as Fascism.

Discussion in 'TTT Discussion' started by Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub, May 20, 2015.

  1. Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub

    Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub i'm thinking i'm thinking VIP

    I believe, as I stated before, that if Tim and Josh didn't want people to know or talk about it, then we should respect their privacy and leave it at that (perhaps even with that reasoning told to us, if possible).

    We somewhat are already a cesspool of drama here, and I believe explaining things simply, and outright (when possible), would deter a lot of further drama from happening, rather than a bunch of private messages of people telling other people this and that, getting the wrong story, and then continuing the spread of it. Just as you think the shoutbox is bad for certain people posting wrongful information, I believe the shoutbox is good because everyone can read it, add to it, and point out things that are wrong or explain things the person is not understanding about the situation. I do understand what you mean about members interjecting and causing a chaotic drama storm, but it's important to realize that this will happen regardless of where it is posted as long as people aren't given the full information and are instead left in the dark to fill in the holes (the basic reasoning behind sex education as well).

    It's not so much that I believe they're hiding the truth, and am upset about that. It's more so that the reasons behind why certain conversations are censored, seems illogical, and that there is a better way to handle the situation (in most cases).
     
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  2. Zikeji

    Zikeji Repoleved VIP Emerald

    Rights? Rights? HAHAHAHAHA

    Rights don't exist here, no one is entitled to anything. We are a private community with private servers - there is no such thing as "freedom of speech". No one has rights to anything. Highwon can censor whatever he pleases, and pass that along to his staff.

    If anyone here believes they have a right to be heard, a right not to be censored - when participating in the forum, TS3, or servers - they are wholly mistaken.
     
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  3. Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub

    Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub i'm thinking i'm thinking VIP

    The only current shoutbox rule is regarding the color red. I have never seen anything suggesting that I keep to light discussion only whilst in the shoutbox, and maybe that's the problem. I personally believe that if members of the community want to talk about something, and it's not breaking any rules, they should have that right, whether in the shoutbox or not, and generally whenever something like this happens, it is the majority in the shoutbox that wants to talk about it.

    Of course, if the purpose of the shoutbox is truly for light discussion only, I think someone should add that clarification. Not only would it discourage serious, lengthy, in-depth discussions, but also give more valid reasoning behind, say, a staff member forcibly ending a perfectly fine discussion.

    My personal hope for the shoutbox and community, is that a level of maturity can be reached so that serious discussions would be allowed and welcomed in the shoutbox if they did not break any rules, or at least that the members who are uncomfortable with it for whatever reason ("hitting too close to home" as Python said) would acknowledge the fact that the forums and shoutbox do not revolve around them in specific, and to simply just retain from participating in that one discussion if they do not want to, instead of trying to hold the entire community to their beliefs of what is and isn't appropriate to talk about. And of course, that we can, in the shoutbox, meet a serious discussion that actually benefits something on an intellectual level with the same, if not more merit that we meet the, well, the regular things we discuss in the shoutbox.
     
  4. Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub

    Communion (1989) Putlockers HD Stream Eng Sub i'm thinking i'm thinking VIP

    As I've stated before, if the parties involved feel that they want to not let people know (i.e. a COI banned player not wanting people to know why he was banned), then the simple solution is for the parties involved to not talk about it, and instead of shutting down a discussion entirely, simply state that the parties involved don't want people talking about it/to know about it. This is often the case, as I stated in the OP, and there's nothing wrong with that. I realize it's a long thread, but if you're going to add to the discussion, I would hope that you read it.

    I'm not trying to promote sticking your nose in someone else's business when they don't want their business shared or made public, it is more so the other reasons for the censorship that I mentioned.
     
  5. Sinephile

    Sinephile Active Member

    I can understand this, but mods are just doing their job. They should do anything they can to resolve heated discussions. I completely agree that we deserve to speak as we wish but some people cross the line. The main priority for the mods and admins are to keep things neutral. If everything being swept under is what that takes then so be it.
     
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  6. Opii

    Opii Keep it Simple. VIP

    However, the the shoutbox is possibly the worst place to attempt to go in-depth into a topic. Yes, some people may interject and point out false information, but those involved ccannot always be there to point out the facts and the misinformation, leading to some believing what was said and those with the correct information to fail to see the messages, being that the messages I. Shoutbox are entirely temporary.

    That being said, I don't believe that even revealing all the information in a situation in a simple and outright manner would stop the drama, the immaturity, or the misinformation. Those negatively involved will still stubbornly state that the facts are lies and that their "facts" are the actual facts which leads to several stories still being thrown around, arguments erupting, and a split and toxic community.

    EDIT: I'd like to note that no matter the situation, we keep our reasoning logical. As an admin, there was always interjection and our own disputes behind each action. Whether you know it or not, the community is always represented through our admins and if you believe there is something wrong in the situation provided, I can assure you there are at least 3-4 admins who agree and are petitioning for 1. More information 2. Change. Again, Sinz can vouch for my own active participation/petition and disagreements with him.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
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  7. Happy

    Happy Laughter is the best medicine. VIP

    I personally dislike it when people get into a heated discussion on the shoutbox. Its not that I don't like to discuss things its just that the shoutbox I find is a place to ask questions, say hello, and should not be a place where you have long discussions. When you do, you drown out other people who might have a question or who don't want to be involved in the discussion. Because of this you should take it to somewhere more private where people can choose to go into and discuss things. Make a teamspeak channel or start a steam group chat.
     
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  8. RhazhBash

    RhazhBash Professional Button Presser VIP

    When it comes to sharing some of this information, a lot of times you cause more debate and drama by not sharing the information. Think of it this way. 2 players hear that their favorite mod was demoted, and they have no idea why. Then they start talking constantly about how the mod didn't deserve it and then start spreading false rumors because they have no idea what's actually going on. They may even start to flood the shoutbox with toxic messages against anyone who supported the demotion. In all honesty, unless the person directly affected wants it kept secret then the facts should be made public so people can stop beating a dead horse. All of us are human, not one of us is gonna agree with every single decision made by the higher ups, but all of us just need to accept that.
     
  9. urisk2

    urisk2 ~Rawr~ I'm a polar bear VIP

    You say this like keeping the information from people didn't do the exact same thing many times before. Every time there is drama (and there is quite a lot of it as much as anyone would wants otherwise) the same things happen and the results are often similar. I think generally the difference between telling and not telling is minute but if, say, someone wanted us to respect their privacy, saying that openly would make your lives so much easier and ease our minds. Its the difference between a cover up and respecting privacy (exaggeration from a 'commoner's view).


    (after reading I realized I stopped addressing you specifically opii about here) :D

    Then inevitably someone hinges on the argument "this is how its always has been and its worked so far" which is (1) Flawed logic that is used to justify a lot of outdated ideas (I mean even something like banning gay marriage really). (2) even if that's true its can still be hurtful to the morale of the staff which causes resignations and creating a higher turnover rate in staff is generally a bad idea. (3) There is the matter of if "surviving" the turbulence affect server and community. This case is fairly minor to me in all honesty but in larger cases look a week before and after the incident and I strongly would argue it hurts turnover rate. It also hurts the quality of mods in some form with a high turnover rate and I don't know quite well enough about current staff to make a solid argument so I will avoid that, but as I recall you just lost 4 or 5 staff members and are likely to lose more with the crackdown on hours that most mods are not fulfilling.

    Basically my two end thoughts would be:
    1) Its a case-by-case situation but I think being open would be better in general. Even just saying the other person wants privacy.
    2) "This is how its always has been and its worked so far" is a terrible argument and I cry a little every time its used.
    3) For the people who rated Drunk dogs posts as dumb, he has put forth a well versed argument that I rarely see many people do. It is anything but "dumb", even if you disagree with it. If you do rate dumb at least show him the respect of making your own post to add to the discussion (alternative to dumb without context - just up-vote the counterargument).
     
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  10. Ravin

    Ravin Determination VIP

    Thing is I did read it, and now you are flaming what I said because you are strawmanning your point. You even compared your point similar to a 9/11 incident which is like Sal said and Godwin's Lawed us. This isn't even a real discussion, this is you trying to find a justificaiton or reason to get into,
    • Someone elses Business
    • Justify having an open discussion that is private in shoutbox
    • Trying to get more say in topics you have no reason to have more say in
    This is like saying people should be able to post in ban appeals when they KNOW the person who broke the rules and the reason why they broke them. Commenting, "You shoot him because of that reason? That is bannable."

    That player doesn't care for your input, nor would they want it. Nor does the staff who COI'd or banned someone need to have your discussion about that topic in the shoutbox.

    Godwin's Law is not a good argument. Comparing his topic to 9/11 and then trying to spin it is just looking for a reason to be justified, and holds no fruit, just a throwing fruit contest.

    See what Rhazbah stated above. You both mean good intentions, but really that is not what the outcome of what you are requesting is going to work. Nor would 'handling it case by case' work either. Why would one topic be worth more over another persons topic to be discussed?

    This is like the people who argue about being slain for accidental RDM, its STILL RDM. That topic being discussed, regardless of the topic, does not include you, you don't need to know about or nor do you need to be discussing it publically.
     
  11. urisk2

    urisk2 ~Rawr~ I'm a polar bear VIP

    I specifically chose "well versed" because I know what issues there were in his argument but he is still polite, well spoken, and a concerned member of the community. Just because he has some flawed logic doesn't mean its fair to throw out the entire argument (as that's a logical fallacy within itself).

    I never stated what would be best. I just said I think honesty is better.
    The facts are: In the past secrets were kept and the harshest result was a time where the servers were almost died. And there will be drama either way but ( i believe) by being honest you can get ahead of it and it prevent the topic from coming back every time someone gets a little new information.

    I'm sure I could think of very specific situations that could arise where you would want it case by case but i guess instead I will just revise my statement to honesty 100% of the time.

    Your last argument feels... poorly worded(?) to me. I am not entirely sure what you meant but by my best guess is you used accidental RDM as a topic and that if someone questions it, it doesn't involve us so we do not need to know.
    If that's what you meant then:

    That's also shortsighted. That question is relevant to every player who can RDM (all of the) so its worthwhile knowing even if its just the reasoning behind the rules because it gives us a deeper understanding of the topic (which is ideal for aspiring mods etc).
     
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  12. Opii

    Opii Keep it Simple. VIP

    Why not ask the ex-staff member why they were demoted? Being banned or demoted is not equal to being banned from all for a of communication. You have steam, you skype, you even have the forums if the player was just demoted and not banned. If the person gives a response, simply cross reference it with a staff member and I'm sure they'll at the very least give you "yes," "no," or "possibly." I highly doubt that, in this specific situation, that the reason would 1. not be obvious 2. Be illogical by any means if they were well liked.
    I don't think anyone has used the "we've always done this" argument; this sort of argument lacks any sort of logical reasoning and only leads to bigotry. As I stated above, some answer is usually given by the person affected and depending on their own reaction/acceptance, they'll make it a big deal and spread the information they wish if they really wish to. If you'd like information, I'm sure they will supply it unless they really rather not, in which case, it's their privacy and their choice. We will not supply the information unless we must defend our own actions if the person(s) affected truly wish to argue publicly.

    Until then, it is of no one's concerns besides those involved.
     
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  13. urisk2

    urisk2 ~Rawr~ I'm a polar bear VIP

    Opii pls.
     
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  14. Opii

    Opii Keep it Simple. VIP

    My bad.

    Goddamn it, @Muffin.
     
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  15. Ravin

    Ravin Determination VIP

    @urisk2 - What I mean is those who state that discussions like that should be open when it does not involve them is like those who state they should not be slain for accidental RDM.

    If we allowed an exception to some things, then there is no reason why we shouldn't do it for others. It would be a "case by case" for everything and until enough people complained or got upset, then nothing would change. A similar instance is now. The few, minority, want a change while the staff and majority of the players know its unimportant/don't need to know.

    What is being requested, or rather desired, is just asking for unneeded attention, discussion, and unrest.


    Apologize for the confusing wording earlier. Was just waking up.
     
  16. urisk2

    urisk2 ~Rawr~ I'm a polar bear VIP

    I can't follow your first points logic. One case is someone who is curious to what happened relating to a large event. The other is someone who is a small, common conflict of someone who doesn't fully understand the rules. I am sure you "as every mod" has had to explain that at least once and you did just that - explained it. It just feels disrespectful (to myself at least) when people try and shoo me away from a topic that is important because they feel I am not emotionally mature enough to handle it. And yes I know the rules are not made with my mental state and reactions in mind but that does not make it less disrespectful to every individual.

    As I said. I changed my point to just "no case by case then" for argument's sake. Just always be upfront.

    There already is, was, and will be attention, discussion, and unrest and the only reason we can talk about this casually now is because it was a relatively small issue. Next time a major conflict comes it will hit too close to home for many to reasonably discuss.

    Every time something like this has happened (in my memory) there is always some degree of shooing people away or stonewalling them. This has directly led to events like the one i mentioned before where the sTTT servers life was in the balance (Trying to avoid unneeded context by being vague but I can be more specific if you think its necessary.

    and no worries about being tired, some of us do that daily XD
     
  17. Debate thread 2.0
     
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  18. Assuming this was about the bullshit that occured yesterday, i did notice some things. The victim of the EVENT was an important member to the community and every wanted to know what happened. This guy in the EVENT was a really good guy. And now boom he is never coming back because he's banned. People started asking why he was banned. Then staff started saying 'no one has to explain anything' 'its better not to know'. Then they started all talking random shit that was totally offtopic to keep us away. I even had a staff member asked me what the fuck happened. And if we are "honoring" someones wishes to keep it "private", the guy is banned from everything. He was an important member of the community and now hes just covered in random shit due to secrets. Make a thread about it. Its a legitimate discussion.
     
  19. Rek

    Rek Ø

    Senpai, I'm a staff member and I have no idea what happened, nor do I care because I trust Highwon.

    He perma'd him for a reason and he may be the only one who knows why.
     
  20. zomborg

    zomborg "She's like a little Satan." - CDriscoll 2015 VIP

    Instead of making this about a specific person, why don't you respect the person that you're so upset about and leave him and the situation alone. Things happened and Event was banned. People are banned here every single day. He may be 'different', but he isn't special. None of us are. He is gone and there is a reason and none of us DESERVE to know what happened. If you feel so desperate to bother someone about their personal life, do it personally. Do it privately. It is no one else's business but Highwon's and Event's.

    As for the general subject of over-censoring in shoutbox, I agree. Yes we have a full forum disclosed to us, but if all parties are being adults about it then I don't see why it should be ended. If there are only 2 or 3 people talking about it, sure. I can understand politely requesting it to be privatized. If there are quite a few people having a normal, adult conversation about every day things or personal opinions then why does it matter?

    The reason so many people here get offended over little things and honesty is because people treat others like they are made of bubble wrap. Grow some balls. If you don't like what someone has to say, say it to them in private so yall can discuss it like adults. Making a big deal about small things makes you not only look bad, but in my personal opinion, it also tarnishes your reputation. People shouldn't have to be a messenger pigeon for your butthurt. Explain it yourself or get over it/ignore the person.
     
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