So, suggesting this in response to a ridiculous situation I dealt with today. So, Player A (inno) false KOSs Player B (inno). Player B shoots Player A for false KOS as they're stood right next to each other. Other nearby players kill Player B because he shot Player A. Player A is not slain because the KOS did not "directly lead" to Player B's death. "Directly lead" is vague in this situation. In my opinion, the KOS did lead to the death - had Player A not KOSd, Player B would have had no reason to shoot them. When B was KOSd, he had two choices - kill A, or carry on with a KOS on him. Either way would get him killed in short order, effectively changing the outcome of the game. The False KOS rule doesn't need to be overly complicated. Just have it as "Inno's false KOS = slay"
Python is correct here. Player B made a conscious decision to shoot player A as a response to the KOS. Thus, player B's death is a DIRECT result of his own personal decisionmaking, not so much someone following the KOS itself. If the reason you gave for them shooting player B is accurate, player B is responsible.
I kinda side with harvest here, surely if someone tries to get everyone to kill someone that is an immediate danger to player b who had to defend himself
Player B does have the right to defend themselves. But as is the case with all self-defense, any witness who doesn't know the details has every right to gun you down as soon as you unload a clip in the person who KOS'd you. How are they supposed to know who was in the right? To them, it could just as well look like you're a T because you just gunned down someone who KOSed you.
If you want them slain for a false KOS, have them or another player shoot and/or kill you. If you are shot, you are allowed to defend yourself, and the initial shot is RDM on whoever false KOSed you ez
Yeah no i get that, theres a risk of an rdm chain anytime someone false koses you but i was agreeing that shouldnt the person that started that get a slay?
A false KOS that is not followed is equivalent to T-baiting. We don't slay T-baiters either. In this scenario, if someone killed player B and said "you just shot that guy" it would not be a slay for player A. If however player B was killed by someone and the stated reason was "you were kos by player A", it would be RDM by player A if the KOS was false. A false KOS is only slayable if it is the direct cause of you being killed. If you shoot a player for false KOSing you, and someone else then shoots you for shooting the false KOSer, the KOS is no longer directly involved. Thus, even though it may have baited you, it does not warrant a slay as it was not the direct cause of your death, the shooting was. Regarding this change, I disagree. Obviously this situation is quite bad for player B, but making such a large change as to slay for any false KOS regardless of impact I can't support.
Player B is false kosed by Player A. This gives Player B a reason to kill Player A. If Player B kills Player A and Player C watches it, that gives Player C a reason to kill Player B. Simple logic. You shoot someone, you can be killed. The kos has nothing to do with this. If you get killed by a false kos that is rdm.
Instead of shooting whoever kosed you just wait until you die bc of it and report. Laugh manically as they get slain muahahahahahahahahahahaha
It is annoying. As a veteran player of ttt it’s incredibly annoying dying to stupid shit. You just have to say fuck it and let it happen
The thing is the rule is utterly irrational and everyone commenting here trying to 'clarify' it is completely missing that fact - there is no reason that the KOSer should get away with it and the only reason they do is because the rules are more full of loopholes than a politicians handbook. An actual unquestionably false KOS that leads to either the person calling the false KOS (under the self kos rule - if you KOSed yourself while you are an innocent, you may be killed for the KOS - and then punished for RDMing yourself. False KOSing is by default, KOSing yourself in the event that you KOS someone and they shoot you) or the person being KOSed dying should be an automatic slay. The sheer number of people who do toxic false KOSes at the moment (on EU2 at least) is beyond a joke and entirely out of hand - they get away with it time after time after time because either a) the target is killed by traitor b) the target kills the caller or c) the target self defends and kills before being hit (has happened to me). Just today I was false KOSed at least 5 times - and I'm not talking questionable KOSes, I'm talking out right to my face when I'm doing exactly nothing traitorous false KOSes. And no @Snowflake❄️ , it's not T-baiting, T-baiting involves getting someone to shoot at you, at considerable risk to yourself (as you are clearly shooting at someone, so anyone who witnesses it can shoot you), dropping random false KOSes however does not give people (other than the target) a reason to shoot you, unless the target calls a retaliatory KOS in which case the target is screwed either way. T-baiting rarely results in the death of the person you're T-baiting, whereas false KOSes 9/10 times will end up in the death of the target. Beyond the above, I feel required to point out that the specific rule regarding false KOSes is as follows: KOSing other innocents for no reason is not only a T act, but also considered RDM. You may only call it if they performed a T act. KOSing a Detective is always traitorous. Notice a lack of statement that anyone has to follow it up. I'm aware this has become a de facto rule, however it IS one without any actual grounds in the listed rules and one that not only enables toxic players to keep on being toxic (like certain other rules I won't comment on on this thread) it's also one that if it WERE more known about, would be more exploited. There is no rationale to defend false KOSers - all forms of physical RDM are treated exactly the same, whether a glancing blow from an explosive or an out right execution; false KOSes can be used to royally fuck someone's round up as you are forced into a situation where no matter what you do, you get fucked (unless you adopt a strategy similar to mine, in which case you get karma banned because you kill 3-4 people who come after you). People who break the rules should get punished, otherwise what the hell is the point of having them in the first place. PS - I'm curious why so many staff think that something that is objectively against the rules (false KOSes are toxic gameplay even if they aren't RDM) is perfectly acceptable and are defending the people who are false KOSing as though they were actually abiding by the rules, rather than flagrantly breaking them, often solely because they know their chances of being slain are infinitely lower than if they shoot someone.
Out of your whole ridiculously poorly thought out ramble above, this might be the funniest thing you've said. Are you telling me that a traitor using a false KOS to their advantage is toxic gameplay? Or.. is it just gameplay, Bravo? Again, the fact of the matter is, typically speaking no one knows people's roles aside from the detective. So, if someone you perceive as an innocent calls a KOS, you are making the conscious decision to either follow it, or hold back on it. Same goes for killing someone for attacking the initial KOSer. At what point do we cast aside personal responsibility for where your bullets go and assign punishment to people for a common gameplay element that is by no means a loophole? It is considered RDM in the event that the false KOS leads directly to their deaths, yes. As others have posted here, the reasonable course is to continue playing your game as normal, and if someone follows it, you either got killed indirectly by a T, or an innocent was responsible for your death. In the latter case, the innocent will be slain because they may as well have killed you with their own hands. What you are suggesting is that we consider all KOSes that aren't provably valid to be slayable counts of RDM, unless I've misread you, which is just patently absurd. You don't understand what you're talking about, and you've illustrated that quite well here.
You know full well I mean Innocent false KOSes, as that is the sole purpose of the thread (though, as an aside, spamming false KOSes as a traitor has had people warned for toxic game play, so yes actually it is), everything you've stated here has no relevance whatsoever to whether or not false KOSing should be slayable with or without people acting on it; it doesn't matter if you know during the round whether the KOS is from an innocent or a traitor, as that has no relevance to whether something is a slay or not. Excuse me? Something that is against the rules (which I quoted, and you ignored entirely) is now a "common gameplay element"? Seems like you need to apply your last sentence to yourself. WHY should an innocent calling a random false KOS on people go unpunished? And don't try to deflect with random tangents that have nothing to do with the thread (like you did above); I want to hear your reasoning why someone should get away with flagrant rule breaking (as they currently do).
I remember it being being punishable to false kos as innocents, regardless of you dying due to the kos or not. Was this changed?
Yes, false KOS is a common gameplay element. You cannot know if a KOS is inherently false or not, Bravo. You do not know if a traitor called it or an innocent, figuring that out is an aspect of the gameplay. I don't know why I have to reiterate that. What is against the rules, is your false KOS directly, emphasis on directly, leading to someone's death. If they choose to shoot you for it in self defense, you just put your life back in your own hands. Sorry, but that's completely legitimate, in no way toxic, nor is it a loophole or against the rules. It's common sense, in fact.
To put a Kos on someone is the same as shooting the guy yourself. If you False kos someone but he doens't get killed for that kos then it's the same as shooting at someone but not hitting him. If the false Kos does get the victim damaged/killed then it's the same if the kos caller would damage/kill the victim himself for the wrong reasons. So I'd say I agree with the rule set right now wich is: As the caller of the kos, you're responsible for all the damage dealt to your kos victim and that false kos'es are seen as something like T-baiting.
I didn't say it was T-baiting I said it was equivalent to; meaning functionally it is handled the same as t-baiting. If someone t-baits you, you can kill them - and if someone KOS's you, you can kill them. If someone t-baits you without valid reason, but never hits you, it's not RDM. If someone KOS'd you without valid reason to do so, but nobody ever shoots you for it, why should that be RDM? The key difference, as you point out, is that you have to call a retaliatory KOS to have others kill the person for the KOS placed on you. Now again, like I said, this is a really sucky situation for B to be in (falsely KOS'd by inno). But if he is shot for any other reason than the KOS, then it is not cause of death, thus it can't be linked to the player who called the KOS as RDM. Mind you, if someone is deliberately calling false KOSes left, right, and center in excess when they're not a traitor, yes, something should be done about that, but in general a single false KOS is at worst RDM. If it doesn't cause damage to you, it is the same as shooting at someone but not hitting them. And to quote the rules a bit: Here's the definition of RDM from our extended rules: It is RDM if your actions cause damage without valid reason. Spoiler: Bigger image And here is an excerpt from the explanation of KOSes. There's your explanation for why an invalid KOS is only RDM if it leads to the player taking damage. So why does player A not get slain when it says clear as day the player who calls a KOS on another player is responsible for that player's death? Player A is responsible for damage caused to B due to his KOS, but remember! Player B committed a traitorous act when he killed A. I explained this in my previous post as well, but there're two likely scenarios here: C, the killer, either 1) claims he killed B for the KOS or 2) he claims it was for shooting A. 1) If the false KOS was placed with invalid reason, RDM by A. 2) That means the KOS of player A did not cause any damage to player B, thus it doesn't qualify for RDM. Therefore A does not get a slay.
