Completed Report against Mister Tybe

Discussion in 'TTT Staff/Player Reports' started by avukyi2r3, Nov 22, 2017.

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  1. avukyi2r3

    avukyi2r3 VIP Emerald

    Name of Staff/Player:
    Mister Tybe
    Steam ID of Staff/Player:
    STEAM_0:1:68523473
    Your Steam ID:
    STEAM_0:0:74573705
    Which Server:
    East 1
    Which Map:
    Assault
    Which Round:
    duno maybe 2 or 3
    Time of Occurence:
    before 11:30 PM
    Reason For Report:
    I saw olivia kill someone hidden under the bridge also shooting toward me and teleported because I was getting shot. I was on the other side of the street near the building under the glitch ledge. I teleported on glitch roof. I then saw her walk away and shot her.

    Grace period doesn't apply if I don't see the person ID the body or if I'm unaware of what is happening. From my perspective I was getting shot as well. Could have been crossfire when she killed the T anyway but either way I was unaware and got shot myself.

    My report said something along the line of she killed someone so I teleported then killed her.

    He said he asked pacifist, agent a, wink

    Honestly the grace period thing came out of fucking nowhere and didn't even apply in this case. The fact I got shot is not invalidated anyway and if he actually checked the logs he should have seen that. I lost a T round because of this.​
    Evidence And/Or Witnesses:

     
  2. neutral

    neutral Banned VIP

    Tagging @Tybe to address you report and @Graze to conclude. Cheers
     
  3. Tybe

    Tybe VIP

    Howdy, I'm currently staffing. so I'll get back to ya when I get done and when I get my ducks in a row.
     
  4. Tybe

    Tybe VIP

    ALRIGHTY THEN, let's get this party started.
    So, I slayed you one on the map cs_assalt for the reason of the Grace Period.
    [​IMG]

    Now let's go over the situation at hand, a brief summary of what I gave to other staff members if you will:

    "player A (d) witnesses player B and C fighting
    player A gets caught up in the fight and teleports away
    player B kills the traitor player C and id's, well over five seconds later the d shows up and kills player B.
    this is still considered valid on grace period correct?"

    This report was a bit borderline for me and I could not give an immediate answer to, I even took away the slay so I could further investigate and discuss before actually putting the slay on you.
    Anyways, that is what I gave to staff, immediately I had gotten two confirmations from two mods, Pacifist and Agent A, that if the kill was past the five-second rule, it's rdm. A little bit later Wink comes by and says "If he recalls the fight from earlier and is killing for the traitorous acts committed within, it's rdm" he said later that he too was on the edge with the verdict since it was highly highly situation dependent.

    And now's the time for the facts.

    In this deathscene, we see the aftermath of the gunfight. I have logs of the fight that I'll show further in the report.
    We see you at the top left on the first scene, freshly teleported away from the fight, and olivia and the bottom who id's the body of phillish.
    At 0:16 we see you once more at the top right at the edge, spotting your prey olivia who has phillish with the magneto stick and going down the road with his Identified body.
    At 0:23 we see you start shooting at the defendant who is still walking down the road, olivia dies soon after.

    now pause, let's rewind, shall we?

    Unfortunately saving deathscenes not attached to the defendant or the plaintiff are not saved for me, but I do however have some damage logs of the incident.

    [​IMG]
    Here it shows the gunfight, and when you teleported. From the deathscene, since it's limited to a 10 second video, for reference let's all imagine you standing at the foot of the building you teleported to later, phillish on the road just after the ramp, and olivia under the train stop.
    BAM!
    Phillish starts shooting at olivia, olivia starts to turn around and return fire, clipping you for 8 damage in crossfire. This is where you teleported, a hasty retreat to the safety of that building.


    [​IMG]
    The fight's over.. for now. The defendant has successfully killed phillish in self-defense and in the victory, olivia goes to id the body which takes around five seconds.

    [​IMG]
    Hey, this seems familiar.. That's right the deathscene comes into play here! After 14 seconds go by, you peek over the edge and proceed to shoot and kill olivia with phillish in hand.

    And those are the facts of the matter. Here comes the debate.
    Now first off let me say that this was a very uncomfortable report to deal with, I am not entirely satisfied with my verdict. This was a very borderline situation, that after thought, I had brought to the attention to other staff. Three members agreed that it was rdm since the kill was made long after the identification which confirmed my suspicions. In the end, I gave you the slay for the aforementioned reason.

    Let's go over the term of:
    [​IMG]
    This is the kicker but let's crunch up some numbers. Let's count how many seconds it was from the id and when you killed olivia which was... around 14-16 seconds. But lets round that up to 15, shall we? Now from the deathscene we can guess that you were out of the fight for let's say 11-12 seconds? leaving you 3-4 seconds to spare. I'll admit that doesn't seem a lot of time for you to react accordingly, and I understand where you're coming from. But in the end, 15 seconds went by after the identification and that's way past the five-second rule of grace period.

    That's all I can think of to say on the matter, I'll be re-tagging my admin now to read my response and the report in general. Here ya go @Graze
    If you have any more evidence, questions, or objections to bring up, please do so.
    I hoped I answered questions that I neglected a bit in-game, I was a tad busy helping the training of two trail mods who are not involved.
    Cya!
     
  5. avukyi2r3

    avukyi2r3 VIP Emerald

    I don't see how that's rdm and how the grace period apply. I even got shot by her. How does her killing someone which I didnt get the name off so even if she ID I wouldnt know all I saw was her kill someone and then got shot by her. In no way does her shooting a T invalidate the damage she did to me. In no way grace period applied because I had no idea who she shot when I teleported away. All I saw was her execute a man.

    Keep in mind it's not uncommon for a T to rdm his T buddy on accident. This could well have been the case.

    Traitorous acts are never invalidated. Someone can change weapon to an harpoon on accident and you may not have ammo so you wait a minute before killing him. Still a legit kill since he commited a traitorous act. Doesn't matter that she IDed a body if I don't see her ID it. I'm a detective and she shot toward me.
     
  6. Tybe

    Tybe VIP

    To address those concerns let's think about them again. Your main points are;
    1. That she shot you.
    2. That she committed a T act by shooting another player.

    Let's start with your first concern. Olivia did hit you for 8 damage. If that damage was reported in of itself, I would mark it off as crossfire, since it was. Let's explain the situation once more, you're at the bottom of the glitched building, phillish on the road with Olivia under the train stop. now, with phillish starting the fight, it's clear that any shot by Olivia towards phillish would be directed at you as well, with her intention of damaging phillish and not you, that would make it Crossfire.

    Next up is the T act. Yes a gunfight between two players is grounds to kos them both for shooting each other. However, this does not necessarily mean for you to go around shooting anyone just for that reason. It depends on the morality or the common sense of player to player to judge whether or not to shoot or wait to see the results. In this case you had around 4 seconds to judge Olivia carrying a dead body. Which can mean only three things:

    1. Olivia won the battle and has identified phillish's body and carrying it around as "hey look I killed a T!"
    2. Olivia won the battle but is carrying phillish's identified body to go hide it somewhere or dispose of it.
    3. Olivia won the battle but grabs a different identified body to hide/show off, ignoring the body of phillish.

    Those are the only three possible scenarios of that situation. I'll address each possibility. The first and second is not a T act because carrying/disposing of an identified body is not a traitorous act. The third is another situation where you have to see if the body of who she killed is unidentified, if it isn't the kill you make on Olivia is RDM. But that's not the case.

    I bring these up to raise another take on the situation from what wink said.
    This pretty much defines what happens. The fight begins and you immediately teleport out of the fight, both players shoot each other which are t acts. Around 15 seconds go by, ten to get done teleporting and around five to judge, and you see Olivia with the identified body of phillish, you recall that Olivia committed a T act, and you kill her for it. From wink's perspective that would be rdm.

    It can be argued that since you did not know who Olivia was shooting at, you Killed on Suspicion. If you claim you lacked knowledge of the fight and who Olivia was shooting, without confirming those suspicions, it's kill on sus.

    In the end, the fact of the matter is. Confusion does not apply to the current situation. You had plenty of time to judge whether or not what the outcome of the battle was, yet you killed in haste.

    I hope this answers your concerns.
    Cya next time!
     
  7. avukyi2r3

    avukyi2r3 VIP Emerald

    No that's not how it works I'm the one who got slain for killing someone commiting multiple traitorous acts. You can try to justify them how you want but traitorous acts are never invalidated. I was a detective. I got shot. She also killed that man. That's two traitorous act. I only go by facts but if you want to go with hypothetical let's just go with what I was thinking. Olivia is trying to kill me and accidentaly kill her T buddy.

    And no I did not have plenty of time and even if the buddy turned out to be a T I would have still killed her for hitting me. It takes about 3 second to tele and I imediately went back to kill her. There was no confusion in my mind. As a detective if someone hit me he's dead no matter how many Ts he kill. I've once killed a T that killed two of his T buddies.

    The grace period would only apply if I was on the sideline and witnessed her killing him and didn't teleport away. Then I would have 5 second to kill her until she ID the body. If she ID the body I have to witness this somehow.

    When I teleported I didn't see who she shot. Only that she shot at me and killed that man as I teleported away. Someone else could have IDed that body it could have been a different body. I would have no way to know since I didn't witness her ID anything. The only thing I witnessed was getting shot and seeing someone dying. Which again are both traitorous acts.

    Even if by some miracle the grace period somehow applied it doesn't invalidate that she fucking shot me. I've accidentaly killed T buddies in crossfire before then I pretend to have killed them so I can be proved. I make the most out of the bad that happen. In this case I was totally justified in my killing of her person.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  8. Tybe

    Tybe VIP

    This is toxic gameplay, let's explain why. Let's say you're in front of a traitor tester, as a detective to fit the case, and you see someone come up to you with a crowbar, accidentally hitting you with it instead of pushing you harmlessly. But he gets in the tester and activates it to test himself before you can retaliate. The person is found proven innocent before your very own eyes but you still kill him anyways when he gets out for damaging you. There are two offenses in that scenario, 1. rdm from the inno for the accidental rdm with the crowbar. 2. toxic gameplay on your part for knowingly killing a proven innocent just for a prior t act.

    With the above statment, it can be argued I contradicted myself with the accusation that you didn't know who olivia was shooting at, but I redirect to Grace Period. While teleporting away from the beginning of the fight, your aim is locked and you see olivia shooting at someone who's just out of range from being named by looking at them, but still within view. If we look at the first damage log, we can see that olivia had kosed phillish twice after phillish starts shooting at her, which was before your teleport. So with this, you can have somewhat of an idea of who olivia was shooting at since everything was in your field of vision. Seeing as this was a radio (quick-chat) kos and not text, it seems somewhat clear she was shooting at phillish. I can't really prove where your field of view was, but since you were shot at at the very beginning, we can assume you were looking around for who did it and then you saw the fight. Back on track we go. You can say that you were too busy or too focused to read the chat, or was distracted since you were marking olivia down to KILL. However, this still falls under the protocol of Grace Period, since in the core of this farce, is that you killed olivia for killing someone, correct? For this, staff goes through the checklist of Grace Period.

    Did the attacker see the victim kill a person?
    Yes.

    Was the body id'd?
    Yes.

    Was the gap in between id and kill more than five seconds?
    Yes.

    This normally comes to the conclusion of RDM after grace period.

    If I was as strict at following the core protocols for staffing as you are for strictly following of what you can do with "the facts", we would not be having this debate as I would only have to say is "that the kill was more than five seconds after the id of phillish."

    Anyways, other than that there's not much to bring up, it doesn't seem like you'll be putting forth any evidence but instead just denial. So I'll finish up on what I want to say one final time.

    I have slayed you for the reason for killing someone over five seconds after the id making them proven innocent.
    I still stand by my verdict as I believe that it was correct as did three other staff members.
    I am also now accusing you of Toxic Gameplay.

    That is all, have a nice day/night.
     
  9. Graze

    Graze Zzz... VIP Silver

    Oh boy. I've read through all of this and will get a response posted sometime after I consult some others about the situation. Feel free to keep discussing the matter, but it sounds like most everything has already been gone over between the two of you. I'll have a verdict here soon.
     
  10. avukyi2r3

    avukyi2r3 VIP Emerald

    I'm the victim here not her. You're victim shaming and accusing me of being toxic.

    This is stupid and makes me want to quit. I've said my version which was that the only thing I saw was her kill someone then I teleported and killed her. She also shot me.

    That is 2 valid reason to kill someone. Not only that I've seen no logs or IDed body. You expect me to be some all seeing magician and punish me for not being a god who see everything. There's nothing toxic about killing someone who shot a detective. I swear sometimes it's like the only thing I should do is die unless I'm a traitor. You're clearly a bad mod if you don't see anything wrong with punishing me in this situation.

    Being proven doesn't exempt you from traitorous acts either. The only people who are exempt from traitorous acts are detective. And in this case I didn't know she was proven nor would I have accepted her as proven since she shot me.

    Proven means jack shit. This is a game mode where people lie to kill you. Accidentally killing a T buddy happen all the time. In fact yesterday I killed someone for killing his T buddy. Before I knew it was his T buddy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  11. Graze

    Graze Zzz... VIP Silver

    I've taken a look at this report, and I've also taken the time to speak with the involved parties, but I'll give a public statement here in order to be clear.

    There are a lot of irrelevant factors being discussed in this thread by both parties, and this all seems to have come from a simply misconception. This report against my moderator is valid. The five second rule does not apply to situations where the attacker doesn't see who killed the identified body because of vision obstruction. As has been in discussion above, ultimately all the factors such as the crossfire damage or proven status don't really relate to whether the kill is RDM or not. We are not able to discern the finer details of the kill in this situation, thus it becomes word vs word. Since the five second rule does not apply in this situation, the kill that @avukyi2r3 made here is not RDM, and thus the slay that was placed on him was an invalid one. I assure you that I'll have Tybe serve a slay for this event and I thank you for your time here today with reporting my moderator.

    I would also like to take a quick moment to bring up one thing I noticed stated here.

    This is indeed a sign of toxic gameplay. As a detective or any role in the game, you generally should attempt to use your head about whether or not you should be killing someone. If someone is to crossfire you for 5 damage while they kill a traitor, and then ID them as a traitor, and then you kill them for the crossfire after having taken all of that in, that's a sign that you need to calm down on finding "valid" reasons to kill someone and think a bit about what's happening. It's true they may have RDMed a traitor buddy, but it will most of the time end up with you killing an innocent player who had not done much wrong at all. I simply suggest changing the way you look at situations like this in the future.

    If there are any questions on this verdict feel free to start a chat with me over the usual mediums of Steam and forum conversations. Thank you for your time.

    Report Valid
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