Completed Report against Pacifist

Pinging the other lead @scuffed water and @Highwon to help handle this, as "Grandpapi" Pacifist is the one being reported.

Also pinging @Pacifist for a response

 

You called a false kos on a detective. The detective was killed because of that kos. You were slain.

This is the same protocol used for any other false kos. I do agree that it is pretty toxic to follow a kos on a detective, and that is why the other player was slain. You were slain because you knowingly called a false kos and it resulted in someone being killed. That's it.

@scuffed water or @Highwon

 

Poke called a KOS on a detective, a proven innocent. Our own rules, at least before the shitty rewrite(s), always explicitly listed detectives as non-kosable due to being proven innocent.

This makes the KOS a false KOS, sure. It also makes it an unenforceable KOS due to it being automatic RDM.

The initiator of the KOS is allowed to be KOS'd themselves due to committing a traitorous act against the detective for calling a KOS on a proven innocent.

The player who killed the detective commits RDM on the detective by killing them.

It doesn't matter if the detective was KOS'd or not. It was automatically an invalid KOS under our own rules. Therefore anyone with a common sense mentality would know that they were committing RDM by attacking the detective. Its like calling a KOS on someone who isn't on the server. You know you can't act on it.


I honestly don't see why Poke was slain here. A false KOS on a detective really should only be punished by a KOS on the person who KOS'd the detective. Anyone who kills a detective off of a KOS clearly knows that they're going to RDM. I don't see why Poke is getting slain for someone knowingly and intentionally committing RDM under a paper thin pretext. He KOS'd the detective, sure, but its pretty fucking obvious it can't be followed.

If the rules need to be rewritten, rewrite them. Because for a server that holds is rules to the "common sense" standard, this slay reeks.

-EB

 

First of all, do not comment on reports you are not apart of. I'll make an exception here and I wont warn you, but any further posts on this thread by anyone who was not involved in the situation will automatically receive a warning point. Thank you.

Second, I'd like to address some of these.

It does not say anywhere in the rules that detectives are not kosable. They are, indeed, kosable.

Wait, what? Are you saying that a kos called against an innocent who is proven cannot be followed else it would be RDM? You can still follow a kos and it wouldn't be rdm. It could be considered toxic if you knew the kos was bs, and in this case the person who killed the detective was also slain.

This has no bearing on what went down. Nobody is arguing that Pokeben couldn't have been kosed for calling the original kos, he very well could have been.

The rules make no mention of it being an invalid KOS. I could talk to the staff team about changing the rules, but as of right now there is nothing that specifically says that a kos on a detective is an invalid kos. I'd just call it a false kos, because there is no reason for calling it. You are correct. Common sense would dictate that killing the detective would be a stupid idea and that is why the player who followed the kos was slain as well. Also, again, it doesn't say you can't act on it in the rules.

Why do you say it is obvious that it can't be followed when we are dealing with a case where someone did in fact follow the kos. This whole situation could have been avoided if he didn't call the kos. How is he not to blame here? He called a kos on a detective and did not have a reason for doing so (as detectives are immune to traitorous acts), thus the kos was false, and when you call a false kos you get slain when it is followed. I literally just applied the protocol for false koses against an innocent and applied it to a detective. You can disagree with the similarity, but without direct codification in the rules? Not very much more than my word vs pokeben's on what is and isn't allowed, but...

This is definitely something I want to explore. At the time of the incident I was being rather stubborn, and I do not like being that way. I am going to discuss with the staff team about changing the rules. I have two different approaches to the problem:

1) Calling it toxic gameplay to kos a detective (there is no reason to do it and the only thing it does is spread confusion, thus coming down on it would make sense).
2) Calling it an invalid kos from the get go, one that cannot be followed.
3) Codifying the way I handled this case.

Any one of these will do in my opinion, but i'm going to be discussing all of them with the team soon enough. Before anything is implemented I'll be sure to get community feedback as well. Since there is no concrete protocol here I was forced to use my discretion, and I believe it to be totally within my power to do what I did today. That being said, if the rules are re-written I will slay myself for this report. I am not interested in moving the goal post to clear myself. So to summarize: I'm going to look into changing the rules.

 

Please reference the link below and drop the passive aggressive attitude. Thank you.

https://www.seriousgmod.com/threads/report-against-minimelt.53154/#post-558836

I'll respond to your points in a bit.

 

Hey I’ve seen this and I’ll look into this and speak with the parties involved to help clear up any of the confusion surrounded the OP as well as the allowance of Enemy, or anyone commenting in a situation like this.

 

I'm going to keep this simple since I have a meeting in the morning.

If I remember correctly, we used to have a rule explicitly stating that detectives could not be KOS'd due to being proven innocents. I don't understand why this disappeared in the recent rule set.


We clearly call out the situations in which a detective can be killed by an innocent. A false KOS is not one of them. Therefore anyone with knowledge of the rules knows that they can not shoot the detective, KOS or no, barring the previously referenced situations being applicable. Ignorance of our rules is not an excuse.

The false KOS is just that, a false KOS. It allows the person who called it to be KOS'd. The only known and actionable known proven innocents are detectives. Therefore any KOS against them is known to be instantly invalid, and unable to be acted upon. Therefore anyone acting upon it is knowingly committing RDM, using a paper thin pretext of the KOS. I don't see why the initial KOS is slayable as our rules clearly invalidated the KOS the second it was invoked due to the detective being a known proven innocent.



I do applaud you for looking into "changing" the rules. Its plain cut RDM from the killer, not the KOSer.

I also wish you all (administration) hadn't nuked the old extended rules. Shit like this crops up because folks want to "simplify" or remove banned members of the administration that made the posts. We spent years making these rules as situations like this cropped up.

 

First of all, I wasn't being passive aggressive. I meant what I said more like "hey, don't post here because you aren't providing necessary rules based knowledge, you are just arguing in favor of the OP. I am going to allow it, and not give you a warning point, because you do still bring up points that must be addressed". I do apologize though if I seemed at all like I was being aggressive.

Second, I dug back through the old rules and found no part that says anything about kosing a detective being either valid or invalid. It simply never states that.

 

As the other contender whom reported Pokeben10. The story goes with as poke said, him and another person kosing me and me calling koses on them and me dying by both their koses. Personally i reported both players because i knew that stupid rule existed and wanted to test an "experiment" which led to these slays. I find this rule kinda stupid because somewhere on the rules and according to LordyHGM detectives are ALWAYS inno and CANNOT have valid koses. If anything it shouldn't have mattered wether or not i was kosed as because i was OBVIOUSLY inno because i was the DETECTIVE. Pokeben10 at most should've had a warning for toxic gameplay. Apparently common sense contridicts the rules some of the time.

- Indy226

 

After reviewing the situation and putting some thought to it, the Administration has decided to update the rules to specifically outline this matter. When the extended rules were revised and severely shortened, there were a lot of clauses or situations that happened to be left out that can be derived from other rules by using memory or some thought. This happens to be one of them, but with the amount of confusion behind this situation it is clear that it needs to be specifically enumerated. The bottom line is, the fact that detectives are always proven innocent would mean that any KOS against them would automatically be rendered an invalid KOS and void as a reason to kill the detective. With this in mind, the killer of the detective would be slain for RDM, not the caller of the KOS. If you turn your eyes to the section Kill On Sight (KOS) in our extended rules you will see that Pacifist and I have added bullet 7 which specifically outlines that KOSes against detectives are not to be followed and you will be slain if you follow one. There is also an addition to the Toxic Gameplay section, specifically bullet 5 which states "Calling KOSes on detectives can be considered toxic gameplay if done excessively or with malicious intent,". This was added to clearly lay out that any type of taking advantage of KOSing detectives to purposefully target or karma drain other players will be punished.

Although the specific rule was just now added, this protocol should have always been in effect so Pacifists slay on you would have been with invalid reason. This report is going to be marked as Completed, thank you for bringing this situation to our attention.

~~ scuffed water

 

I still don't exactly understand what I did wrong in this instance, but hopefully the rules are more clear from now on. I have also slain myself in game.